Y2KZX12R
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posted July 12, 2006 08:53 AM
Drag race cam timing?
What cam timing are you guys running for drag racing a 1361+ cc zx12r?
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madmike
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posted July 12, 2006 09:01 AM
I was running 105-106....
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 12, 2006 11:10 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 12 Jul 2006 12:11
MIKE, you like 106 on the exhaust? I'm going to degree Petes (aliveagain) cams in tonight and he was saying that some guys on here recomended 107/107?
I havent played with cam timing on the 12r for drag racing at all so...?
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madmike
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posted July 12, 2006 12:19 PM
it seemed to work good at the time, but it really is way to much of a PIA. to change very often... I was going for 105/105. and ended up with 106... I have heard as much as 110 on the E side...
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osti33
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posted July 12, 2006 03:16 PM
I ran mine at 105/107 but those were aftermarket cams. That was on my 1375 motor.
I'm going to try 106/107 this time around.
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entropy
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posted July 12, 2006 11:11 PM
107/110 is what my 1427 seems to like; but i'll try something differnt next time
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 13, 2006 02:04 AM
entropy, but you are also running aftermarket cams correct?
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entropy
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posted July 13, 2006 03:41 AM
yep, Muzzy cams
did testing at johnnycheese some time ago and dyno hp directionally liked bigger exh, smaller int #'s. I wish we had done the alternative set ups more carefully.
I am not 100% happy with my current set up because the hp hits 215-225 (air/tire/dyno differences) at about 10.2 and stays that way till the limiter. Gonna try some alternatives on the #2 motor i am building.
BTW: I am VERY happy to hear you are helping AA; he seems like a good guy and was getting frustrated
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 13, 2006 06:37 AM
I was at AA's last night. Dialed in his cams... He should be all set now.
Thanks for the info on the cam timing...
If you guys are running a manual chain tensioner he needs to know the adj. procedure.
I only run the stockers so I havent messed with them.
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countersteer
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posted July 13, 2006 07:45 AM
you guys are making me jealous
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entropy
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posted July 13, 2006 09:00 AM
quote:
I was at AA's last night. Dialed in his cams... He should be all set now.
Thanks for the info on the cam timing...
If you guys are running a manual chain tensioner he needs to know the adj. procedure.
I only run the stockers so I havent messed with them.
Advise AA to retire the manual tensioner, you can get 1 click on the OEM and that's all you need.
I will NOT put the manual back in...
(hopefully)
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aliveagain
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posted July 13, 2006 09:26 AM
Once again it was great to meet someone from the board and as usual was alot of help.
I googled the cam chain tensioner and came up with 1/2" deflection in between the cam sprockets.There was also another way but was in dispute.That was to screw in bolt until it touches and then either back off or advance it another 1/4 turn.
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madmike
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posted July 13, 2006 12:09 PM
Stock here also...
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osti33
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posted July 13, 2006 01:37 PM
I would and do run the stock tensioner on my big motor.
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aliveagain
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posted July 13, 2006 06:13 PM
A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message  I mean Entropy,what problems arose that necessitated a transfer back to stock?With only one click of play left,I would think that might be a problem as the chain stretches,no?
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osti33
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posted July 13, 2006 06:32 PM
quote:
A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message I mean Entropy,what problems arose that necessitated a transfer back to stock?With only one click of play left,I would think that might be a problem as the chain stretches,no?
As the chain gets more slack in it the tensioner will "click"/adjust out more. If you start at one click it will go to 2 then 3 and so on.
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entropy
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posted July 13, 2006 11:19 PM
the problem with the manual for me was running it too tight. destroyed cam chains and guides. With the OEM it is self adjusting.
Folks (like me) started using the manual when the 1361 came out and we all thought that the OEM's min tension setting was too tight because of the stroker needing a .080 base spacer.
Turns out that the OEM tensioner does accomodate the stroker.
Reall, as Mike and Osti say, just run the OEM. Push it ALL the way in, install it, then install the spring , lil rod and nut and you will hear it click.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 14, 2006 07:35 AM
Thanks for the input guys. I thought some of you were running the manual one. I also stayed with the stock one on my 1375. I didnt see a need to go with a manual one.
So Pete, I'd say run the stocker.
I did notice that your chain guides had alot of wear on them. I'm wondering if that was from having the manual tensioner too tight? It may explain why freddie said the chain was stretched? I should have measured the chain for you while i was there. But you have a caliper... the book will have a length spec for a given number of links. Its worth checking now.
Let me know whan the dowel and washer come in and i'll head back down and give ya a hand. we can check the chain at the same time...
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entropy
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posted July 14, 2006 12:12 PM
I'm wondering if that was from having the manual tensioner too tight?
yes
It may explain why freddie said the chain was stretched
and yes
and prob has some kinks...
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aliveagain
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posted July 14, 2006 06:13 PM
I have a new chain with little milage in it now.The old one had 17000 on it.I found the old tensioner,I just have to go thru the book to make sure I'm not leaving anything out.The old chain was stretched in some spots and not in others making it difficult for Freddie to degree the cams the first time.
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kcadby
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posted July 15, 2006 03:56 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 15 Jul 2006 17:21
I've had good luck with the manual tensioners.
John's motor was raced for a year before we sprayed it...then after months of racing on spray he knocked BOTH keepers out!!! of one valve/retainer rev limiting too much on spray.
EVERYTHING in the motor looked wonderful when I had the head off replacing the bent valve...
NOT saying they are needed but we install them in all race engines.
It may be because I'm used to using them though???
In the olden days you HAD to use them because the old KZ/GS stockers just weren't stong enough to hold up under the loads that heavy duty springs, cams and air-shifting exerted on them...
I would NOT start a motor that I knew had a 1/2" of play in the chain though???
I'm pretty darned sure that the APE instructions say 1/4" between the cams...
That is how I install them...but then I check how it "feels" when turning the engine back-and-forward with a wrench (like the olden days)...
I usually end up going a tad tighter because the crank will turn backwards more than I like before the cams move 
Oh ya...
We run 103 to 108 (usually) on intakes and 103 to 110 on exhaust depending on the
combination (that includes bike set-up combination)...
I have only seen one engine so far that has run "significantly" better/worse when playing with cam timing.
It's Ryan's busa that we are R&Ding...
We gained 8hp / 6ftlb throughout most of the power band until top end...there was amazingly less than 2 at max hp though...
We've made 200.8hp 108.4ftlb so far with stock bore/stroke and only 12:0 to 1 compression  veryspecialhead
Doing more port length, valve spring, cam grind, exhaust pipe changes now to get the "few %" more power/torq that we KNOW we can get...FUN Fun fun...
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aliveagain
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posted July 16, 2006 04:42 AM
KCadby,Thats 1/8"up and 1/8" down total movement?Sounds real tight,guess another call to A.P.E . is in order.
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Nukedog
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posted July 16, 2006 03:23 PM
"We've made 200.8hp 108.4ftlb so far with stock bore/stroke and only 12:0 to 1 compression veryspecialhead "
Now you guys sounds like Carpenter... Almost identical wording...
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aliveagain
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posted July 18, 2006 11:52 AM
A.P.E. is in the process of moving but I did get ahold of someone at Schnitz and they said there is no set amount but to have it on the tight side.I think I'll go with Kcadby's setting.Entropy,I'm not sold on the stock one.As a matter of fact,the advertisement crap for the manual one says its the stock that wears out the guides fast at high rpm.Half a dozen of one,six of the other!
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entropy
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posted July 18, 2006 02:53 PM
AA,
lots of opinions on this issue.
"its the stock that wears out the guides fast at high rpm..."
hey, anything is possible; but it doesn't jive with my experience.
All I know is that I put a manual one on in 2001 when I went to the 1361 because "the stroker must have the manual tensioner"
I have had an unending series of kinked cam chains and wornout slipper guides, UNTIL i mounted the OEM. The last 2 times i pulled the motor down the chain and guides were/are pristene.
When i mount the OEM tensioner i push the foot all the way in, flush with the base; then i put the spring and rod in, and tighten the bolt which puts tension on the foot, invariably it clicks once. That's enough adjustment for me.
Folks like Kevin who have the magic touch adjusting the manual one are rare (and talented) birds.
I ain't rare and I am sure as shit not talented...
BTW: guess which tensioner Coby used when he built Buddy's motor...
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