NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 24, 2005 08:14 PM
 Edited By: NOX on 24 Oct 2005 21:16
quote:
I heard muzzy had a fix for the puller.
Some type of support for the puller mounted inside the cover.
anybody seen or know about it?
I have it. Muzzy, ( ie, Kurt Dorn, or Dave Turner), would not admit that they had a bad batch of pullers come through. They told me it was my fault it broke when I pulled the clutch at pit road speeds......
Later spoke with Rob Muzzy. He admitted they had a bad batch of them, they were machined too small. He refuned my money, and got the updated bearing for the cover, (like MTC uses) , for no charge..........
I was super displeased with the whole incident, even though Rob did make it right.
Now, there are only really two types of lock up, single, and multi stage, multi stage being the ones with the hold back springs. Without a data logger, they are a total nightmare to tune. The single/two stage clutches, you can use the arms in two or three stages if you have 6 arms, depending on what you like, what you need, and all. I use.-------------------, weights, and --------- springs, ha ha, and it works great....., they are designed to let the clutch slip down low, and still be able to lock at top rpm. Rider weight is a big factor as well. I have been tuning one of these on a 12 for 2 years. Craig Treble finally gave me some insight that put me in the right direction, and helped me a ton. Working on his bike some helped too. Lots of racers will send you on a goose chase if you ask em, and I found that some Texas and LA racers really tried to "help" one day at an NHRA race I was running. Long story short, they were telling me to do the exact opposite of what was needed.
this is why Vincent probably needs one......, no offense, but if I put him on my bike, it would not work right . Also, if I put some lightweight, 115 pound ridier on my bike, he would have one hell of a ride coming...........
Lock ups are great for thier intended purpose, but for street riding, the first time you forget its there,,,,, you got no clutch after you pull the lever........,
hope this helps
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
  
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted October 25, 2005 06:25 PM
Actually I have a Lock Up for one reason, To LOCK UP THE CLUTCHfor no slipping on top end. I will control the launch with spring pressure and hand control. I have the 6 arms that could be used for a 2 stage, but once I get off the line and underway, I want no slipping at all! I also bought a "Spare" Puller!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 25, 2005 09:13 PM
Are you still spraying?
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
|
posted October 26, 2005 02:12 AM
Vince, I think you're missing the point of a lockup. Once the bike starts rolling you aint controling the clutch anymore. You have to leave at the perfect RPM or the bike will bog. Too much and it will spin or wheelie.
quote:
Actually I have a Lock Up for one reason, To LOCK UP THE CLUTCHfor no slipping on top end. I will control the launch with spring pressure and hand control. I have the 6 arms that could be used for a 2 stage, but once I get off the line and underway, I want no slipping at all! I also bought a "Spare" Puller!
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 26, 2005 05:04 AM
what he said.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted October 26, 2005 06:04 AM
Vince- bring some extra clutch puller shafts to Maxton.
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted October 26, 2005 06:27 AM
Really depends on what you want your lock-up to do.
The more weight you put on the arms the more it controls the launch rpms.
If you use stock or lighter springs and as little weight as you need to lock the
clutch down afterward then you have more control over the launch.
I rode for a couple years with a lockup on my street bike stock spring no weights.
If i tried to hold the clutch tooo long on a hard launch the lockup would take it away,
nothing wild but just pull the level out you hand.
NORMAL street riding is not 8k rpms so the lockup was not a problem.
Could still slip it out the hole and not burn clutches on the big end.
Much easier on your hands in traffic, than heavy springs.
YMMV.
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted October 26, 2005 09:40 AM
quote:
Vince, I think you're missing the point of a lockup. Once the bike starts rolling you aint controling the clutch anymore.
This isn't true. All a lockup does is add to the spring pressure. You can still control that with your hand if the total is not too much. We have a Muzzy lockup converted to hydraulic to prevent the puller breakages. It works perfectly, just like an ordinary clutch. Doesn't burn plates, doesn't break pullers, and I still slide it by hand on every launch.
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 26, 2005 04:29 PM
Sounds like you both have it messed up a hair.. The purpose of the lock up is to run less spring than normal, (static), but no matter how much weght you have on it, it will not pull the lever out while the bike is sitting still, (IF it is adjusted properly), ever see a pro et or psb roll through the lights, NO> The weights add pressure to the clutch hat as wheel speed increases, not engine rpm. Rpm does it on a Pro stock car clutch, wheel speed does it on a bike.
That is about as far as my lesson goes. Have fun tuning. It will work like a dream when it is right, like a nightmare when you have it wrong. I love the guys at our local tracks that buy a MTC mulit stage, and they say,......"MTC said it was set up for a 170 pound rider" and then they go out and wheelie, or spin like hell. Then I say, you need to do xxxxx, and they dont, and have all kinds of nightmares, or blown motors cause they make it slip too much......
They are well worth the work to get right.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
|
posted October 26, 2005 05:57 PM
Lorcan, that may be how you set your clutch up to operate, but Vince is running a single stage lockup, once engaged there aint much he can do to control it other than pulling the clutch lever in.
quote:
This isn't true. All a lockup does is add to the spring pressure. You can still control that with your hand if the total is not too much. We have a Muzzy lockup converted to hydraulic to prevent the puller breakages. It works perfectly, just like an ordinary clutch. Doesn't burn plates, doesn't break pullers, and I still slide it by hand on every launch.
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 26, 2005 06:53 PM
If you are sliding a lock up by hand, you are defeating the purpose. Why do you think all those pro et bikes leave off the two step without a bog or tire spin..........
you run a lock up to lock up the high hp up top, but also, you can let it slip on its own down low before it locks in, ........, both ends are tuneable...........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted October 27, 2005 09:28 AM
I see what you are saying, and it's a great idea, but!
Most people don't buy a lock-up to use as a slider. we need to lock the clutch down on top end where the hp normally drives thru . That is the primary purpose.
I never thought about the bottom except when it had too much weight
and it took the clutch too early.
I may try to tune that end also, but it's not a priorty. I have a great left hand.
Wondering if the soft spring would be counter productive on the street with constant starts and stops?
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted October 27, 2005 10:37 AM
quote:
The weights add pressure to the clutch hat as wheel speed increases, not engine rpm. Rpm does it on a Pro stock car clutch, wheel speed does it on a bike.
That's a rather simplistic view. The clutch when fully engaged isn't going around any faster at 10,000rpm in 5th gear than it is at 10,000rpm in 2nd, so won't lock up any harder even though the rear wheel is going around faster. So there is an rpm element, not purely wheel speed.
I use a lockup on my streetbike because otherwise the clutch would slip, not because I want it to do the launching for me. I race on a wide variety of tracks. If I had to set the lockup for every track and differing conditions I go to I would just about be dialling it in by the time I had to go home, so I hand slip the clutch to launch and the lockup does it's thing further down the track.
Fitting lighter springs isn't necessarily ideal either. Depending on the power, the clutch might slip at lowish rpm before the lockup really does anything. Some people put this to good use to prevent wheelies on gearchanges (high hp nitrous bikes for example that don't have programmable boost curves) and some people just want it locked up and end up using heavier springs than stock. I recently did some top speed stuff using my drag settings on the clutch, which are stock springs and one nut and bolt. With the bike geared up 33% there was a bigger gap between gears and as I selected top the rpm dropped so much the clutch slipped. In this instance I should have run more spring pressure. Again this shows the importance of rpm, not wheel speed, as I was going faster at that point than I go in the quarter.
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted October 27, 2005 10:40 AM
Ninja, how can you say that the bottom is not a priority???...The 330 is what gets you your ET...Especially on a 12, the last 1/4 of the clutch lever needs to be slipped to prevent bogging!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 27, 2005 01:00 PM
If the clutch is slipping in high gear, it needs weight, not spring pressure.......
But what do I know............I had my lock up education from working on one of the top ten PS bikes in NHRA.
and my clutch works right. Every motor and weight combo, and launch rpm makes the clutch act different., but , the principle is all the same. You will know the guys that have them set right. They will not be working on their clutch so much, and will look smoother going down track than the guys that think they need the same number of arms and weight that a PSB does, on a 200 hp motor..........
Word of advice, just becasue it comes with 6 arms, does not mean it works best that way......, and just because you have 6 springs, does not mean that works best either.........
And Fropappy, if you read this, keep your mouth shut, or no more fried fish for you at the races....!!!!!!!!
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 27, 2005 06:32 PM
Dean, you have a PM
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
01ZX12r
Expert Class
Posts: 338
|
posted October 28, 2005 05:40 AM
Mr Hill......
If your bike is making over 250hp, you will probably benefit from a lock-up clutch. I have mine set up for drag racing, not a mile course. You are a very experienced rider, unlike myself, thats why I bought the MTC multistage lock-up. I dont have a data recorder, but have finally have good idea where spring pressures and weights need to be. If you want call me sometime and can share some ideas that may be helpful. I have my 12 in the 1.4 60ft time range finally. Email is azx12rush@aol.com Take care and good luck, Chris
____________
Lovett Racing/Pedigo Performance
8.40 @170
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted October 28, 2005 11:49 AM
quote:
Ninja, how can you say that the bottom is not a priority???...The 330 is what gets you your ET...Especially on a 12, the last 1/4 of the clutch lever needs to be slipped to prevent bogging!!!
Because I have a good left hand.
My average 60' is 1.46-1.48 with good clutches.
I like to ride the bike and would rather brag on my left hand than my slidder clutch.
Whatever works for you works. I don't have a lock-up on the 12 but i've have one on a
900rr. I do know how to make it do what "I" want it to do.
Stay out the way on the launch and save my clutches(lock-up) after I release the lever.
I race for the pure fun on it, don't care who is in the next lane or what they are on.
I want to make my best pass with me controlling things.
If i wanted the bike to run it's fastest. I'd put a slider ,wheelie limiter and autoshifter,
with nitrous in the throttle . I'd probably take a few pounds off my big azz too and add
20-30 to the front of the bike.
|
TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
|
posted October 28, 2005 05:32 PM
ninja... a slider is a whole different animal. All you do with that is set your stall speed. 
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 29, 2005 05:58 PM
quote:
ninja... a slider is a whole different animal. All you do with that is set your stall speed.
you have weight to adjust on a slider as well......., it is set up a whole different way, and you have no control, as in NO clutch lever at all.........., bare bar where your clutch lever USED to be..........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted October 29, 2005 11:58 PM
yes i know its not a true slider, but it acts like one as far as throw the clutch away and ride off. I'll bet the both are rpm sensitive.
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 30, 2005 07:58 PM
Yes, both are rpm sensitive, but the lock up will move the bike at all rpms, a slider will not, cause there is no clutch lever
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted October 31, 2005 05:28 AM
quote:
The weights add pressure to the clutch hat as wheel speed increases, not engine rpm....
Yes, both are rpm sensitive....
Make your mind up.
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted October 31, 2005 06:11 AM
you can actually start a bike with a slider in gear, it will go nowhere, untill you give it gass, a lock up works like a normal clutch, but is fine tuneable.
a slider is a complete different clutch assembly, a lockup has just a different hat.
www.mtceng.com
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted November 07, 2005 06:57 PM
btw, anyone got a multistage for sale?
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC