VincentHill
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posted September 09, 2005 06:34 AM
Lock Up for the ZX12?
A good friend of mine said that maybe it is clutch slip and not tire spin that I am having problems with. He further stated that at 200+, the wind Resistance and mix of high HP that "NO" spring set up will hold it.
The #! thing I am afraid of is not being able to pull in the clutch if I have a High speed problem. #2, Down shifting?? I know nothing about these things and have seen Bergie have his share of problems
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gunner
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posted September 09, 2005 06:43 AM
Vince I know from my past Drag Racing days on the Z1s that if you tryed to pull the clutch while the motor was at full song you can break some sheeeeot. But keep in mind that all you need to do is chop the throttle and the pressure created by the little weights is gone. Looking at the 12 clutch arm I would say that you would probably snap it off at the pressure plate if you pulled the clutch in at full song. Again just chop drop and roll!!!!!!!! I do crack myself up 
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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gunner
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posted September 09, 2005 06:48 AM
I will just about promise you that you have some slippage going on in the higher gears without a clamp on it. Also a nice thing is once you put a lock up devise on you can lower your base pressure with some nice soft springs and make the ride a little easier for the 95% of the time when you don't need all that base pressure. If ya gots to do it might as well get something out of it for Ol Vince right?
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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VincentHill
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posted September 09, 2005 07:06 AM
Remember, when the Z-1 came out I was already Old The problem of doing a Plug Chop was the Ball bearing would weld itself to the clutch Push rod. We all installed a Roller Bearing plate assembly like all clutches have not to avoid this type of a problem. I do not pull in the clutch at max rpms, but I thought the vehicle speed had more to do than the engine speed?? If I "SLow" down to about 125 to 150 that may only be 6 ot 7,000 rpms but the vehicle speed (I thought) would keep the clutch engaged!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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your car is slow
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posted September 09, 2005 08:57 AM
if the motor locks up at speed..you should have no problem pulling in the clutch.
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Rac4It
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Bergie
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posted September 09, 2005 11:04 AM
You don't need a lockup clutch
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VincentHill
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posted September 09, 2005 11:51 AM
quote:
You don't need a lockup clutch
Bergie, after seeing what you went through I really do not want one. My only question is the tire spinning that much or could the clutch actually slipping. When I take it apart, everything looks clean and unburned to me. I also have about 100 more HP than you did not to mention the "Extra" Traction I have with 50 (or so) more pounds!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted September 09, 2005 11:52 AM
quote:
if the motor locks up at speed..you should have no problem pulling in the clutch.
My problem with that statement is I want to pull in the clutch when I hear it change sound not when the tires are sliding and the engine is dead!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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entropy
Moderator
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posted September 09, 2005 12:46 PM
gunner,
you are batting .500; damn good for baseball :
quote:
... all you need to do is chop the throttle and the pressure created by the little weights is gone...
no-No-NO, chopping the throttle at speed will NOT take the pressure off the lockup unless you "lockup the rearwheel" by said "chopping".
quote:
... I will just about promise you that you have some slippage going on in the higher gears without a clamp on it....
Yep, I agree with you here, and have seen clutch slippage even w/my paltry 220hp in 1/4mi when not running a lockup.
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addisonzx12
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Posts: 213
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posted September 09, 2005 01:31 PM
I am pretty sure my clutch was slipping when I was doing top end runs, I was running 6 HD Schnitz springs at the time!! Now this was with my 200hp 1290 on asphalt. I felt SURE it was the clutch because in 6th gear I saw the tach move about 500 rpm & the GPS I was running did not move!! I spoke to Doug Meyer about it & he said it was not the clutch! He said it was because I had about 30 lbs of air it the rear tire & the tire was 'bowed' on the road & tire was spinning!! Anyway, I went to a MTC lockup & the 'spinning' stopped. But I also am using a Rennsport SC2 now. I like the lock up, especially running synthetic oil!
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 09, 2005 02:38 PM
Ignorant question -- for a combined street/race bike, are there downsides for the lockup clutch, other than the question of not being able to pull in the clutch past a certain point?
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VincentHill
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posted September 09, 2005 02:57 PM
Thanks Karl, that is Exactly what I thought it was Speed related. Those Schnitz Springs are more like small Fork Tube spacers. Serious springs.
I need to know both ways so I think I "MUST" buy one and see for myself and pray that I do not have one of these problems and run small weights
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 09, 2005 02:59 PM
Are the Schnitz springs heavier than the Brock Davidsons?
I prefer the strongest springs I can comfortably use. Thanks!
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rac4it
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Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted September 09, 2005 05:34 PM
If you're gonna get a lockup, go with MTC
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VincentHill
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posted September 09, 2005 06:57 PM
quote:
Are the Schnitz springs heavier than the Brock Davidsons?
I prefer the strongest springs I can comfortably use. Thanks!
BY A HUGE AMOUNT!
Bergie, MTC uses Stages and (as in 2 or more stages) and Muzzy has a single stage. Why do I meed more than one stage? Anyone have a lock up for sale?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 09, 2005 07:40 PM
Thanks Mr Hill.
I'll order the Schintz's then. Good info to have.
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wezze93
Expert Class
Posts: 127
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posted September 09, 2005 08:29 PM
i have a mtc lock-up on my turbo zx12 i thank it is locking up to soon what is a good set up for it im 280pd.
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gunner
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posted September 09, 2005 09:53 PM
quote:
gunner,
you are batting .500; damn good for baseball :
quote:
... all you need to do is chop the throttle and the pressure created by the little weights is gone...
no-No-NO, chopping the throttle at speed will NOT take the pressure off the lockup unless you "lockup the rearwheel" by said "chopping".
quote:
... I will just about promise you that you have some slippage going on in the higher gears without a clamp on it....
Yep, I agree with you here, and have seen clutch slippage even w/my paltry 220hp in 1/4mi when not running a lockup.
It was early in the day for me to be giving advise, but I guess what I was saying is Chop the throttle and pull the clutch at pretty much the same time and the rpm will drop to idle pretty much instantly there for not placing too much pressure on the puller. Sort of like backing off an Auto trans without bending a shifting fork. Not something that's impossible to do but it does require some pretty perfect timing to do. It can be done and so can this if it's done at just the right time.
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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your car is slow
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Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted September 09, 2005 11:11 PM
Id think a muzzy would work fine for what you want it to do (IE..you dont dragrace)....but many people seem to have problems with the puller shafts.
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VincentHill
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posted September 10, 2005 05:04 AM
Brian, I agree with you "BOTH" Ways. I do not need the extra sophistication of the MTC but !!! I do not like the Puller shaft problems either
Tenance, The Max I could deal with was 3 Schnits and 3 Muzzy (For any length of time) Wait until you see then and YOU will understand why they could be used for suspension!!
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entropy
Moderator
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posted September 10, 2005 05:42 AM
I believe that Muzzy now uses a bearing in the cover to support the puller shaft like the MTC (not sure on this).
BUT VH, you don't need a multistage, the simple MTC lockup would do exactly what you want. It doesn't have a "hat" with springs, just arms with weight. cheaper.
And if you wanna helluva deal, I have one complete, even WITH a modded clutch cover. The only fly in the ointment is that I "surfaced" the clutch cover and spacer between the cover & cases, so you have to add another clutch cover gasket to bring the right clutch cover/puller shaft dimension back. $250 and its yours!!! (incl postage!!!)
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ninja12
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posted September 10, 2005 05:46 AM
I heard muzzy had a fix for the puller.
Some type of support for the puller mounted inside the cover.
anybody seen or know about it?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 10, 2005 05:55 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 10 Sep 2005 07:01
quote:
...what I was saying is Chop the throttle and pull the clutch at pretty much the same time and the rpm will drop to idle pretty much instantly there for not placing too much pressure on the puller. ....
gunner,
i'm not bustin' yr balls, but there are some rare folks here who believe everything they read and we gotta be careful what we tell 'em eh?
On my bike:
Chopping the throttle in gear at 11,000rpm @200mph WILL NOT allow the rpm to drop (unless rear wheel breaks loose), and will NOT take the pressure off the lockup. My lockup allows pulling in the lever at about 5-7000 engine rpm when in gear (anygear)
Maybe yr bike/lockup is different?? Which lockup are you running?
As you know, when the clutch is locked up and you are traveling down the highway, the clutch assembly is being driven directly off the crankshaft and rotates with it. The lock up is only sensitive to the rpm of the clutch assembly.
Chop the throttle at 11000rpm @ 200mph, what happens???
1. best case is you just snap off the head of the puller shaft.
2. worst case is you break the puller shaft AND break loose the rear tire, AND experience a catastrophic loss of oil pressue (due to sharp decel) and toast yr motor.
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gunner
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posted September 10, 2005 10:05 AM
Edited By: gunner on 10 Sep 2005 13:53
I don't have a lock up on the 12R. My experiance with them is from my funny bike days. Mid to late 80's. Anyhow things don't seem that much different, and in fact aren't except for the Mickey mouse apple core pull assembly mounted in the cover. I'm not here to argue either and safety is always my main and first concern. Maybe a little pratice at throttle and clutch engagement is all that's needed. Go out and get yourself and auto trans and you will learn to master this technique or else go broke buying shifting forks. I stand by what I have said it CAN be done, but I'll also agree with you that maybe not by everybody and this board is read by everyone. So with that in mind I'll retract and say to everyone not to try this at home because death may be the end result if you get it wrong. A locked wheel at mach 2 isn't a good thing and I highly discurage it at all cost. Safety FIRST...... I guess a fellow would really be fucked with a slider clutch huh? Running on a short track would really be something that couldn't be done as well ?
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted September 10, 2005 10:23 AM
Damn Karl....id be willing to bet if vinny doesnt jump on that...sterby or Krissten will
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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