VincentHill
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posted April 05, 2005 04:03 PM
Canada Max has been paying attention. First, the only thing I drilled was the Return fitting in the fuel tank to enlarge the holes only. This return valve holds 15 to 16 PSI which is perfect for what we are doing. I completely drilled out another of these fittings since the one holding the pressure is the one in this picture
I also flow tested the fuel system with the Muzzy Pump 2 ways. First I measured at 5,000 rpms and then wacking the throttle open as quickly as I could and measured the amount of time it took before I reached the rev limiter. I did all of this through the Bypass regulator with it pumping fuel out the #28 jets at 10 PSI. Trust me that I have waay more fuel than I will ever need. The Muzzy Pump allows a peson to not need the external pump for any reason in the 2000 and 2001 ZX12's
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
  
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ninja12
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posted April 05, 2005 11:46 PM
Help me understand this.
what i think i understand
1. the muzzy pump is good for 700 hp.
2. the return line ALWAYS has pressure of atleast 15-16 psi.
3. the return valve in the tank opens at 15-16 psi .
What i don't understand
1. why you drilled the return fitting,
2. how you knew it's was too small and how big it needed to be.
3. why you have two of the units pictured and where exactly they fit in the system.
IF I'm correct in what i think, then why not just spice the return regulator between the TB and the tank.
This way the tank check valve would regulate the pressure down to 16 psi and the fuel would be in motion.
I grew up down the street from another Mr Hill, very interesting man!
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canadamaxxer
Pro
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posted April 06, 2005 07:21 AM
 Edited By: canadamaxxer on 6 Apr 2005 08:22
I can't answer for Vince on this one, but I'll put my 2 cents in...
The muzzy pump is a high pressure, high volume pump. It is rated for 350GPH, which rates it at 700HP. Because of the high volume of the pump AND the seat pressure of the check valve, the pressure in that line is always 15-16 PSI (based on Vince's research). On a stock pump I would not make any guarantees on the pressure in that line. The point of Vince testing the pump at differing loads and rpm's was to see if the OEM regulator reduced the return volume at any time as a result of the changes in pulse width (and therefore fuel requirement per injector)of the injectors. With a 350 GPH pump AND your tank holding about 5 gallons, AND assuming the tank never got emptied out, the fuel would be completely circulated 70 times per hour...or over one tank full per minute. That volume is staggering....these pumps are waaaaay more than we will ever need.
I suspect that Vince drilled out the check valve holes to eliminate any possible restrictions in the return side of the system. Keep in mind that even if the check valve unseats at 15-16 psi, the pressure can begin to creep up in that line if the volume allowed through the valve is not enough. This is the same idea as boost creep on a turbo engine that is running too small of a waste gate. I would venture a guess that Vince did it as part of his "insurance policy".
In a system like that the fuel to a deadhead regulator is never in motion unless the fuel is flowing through the regulator (i.e.: using the nitroussystem). Let's look at a worse care scenerio: the first use right after installation. You've tee'd into the return line, and have everything installed and assembled. If the fuel line is not bled, there will be a column of air in the fuel line that connects to the regulator. Once the nitrous system is activated, the high pressure liquid against the Nitrous solenoid pintle will flow immediately (other than the initial purging), but the fuel side will have to purge the entire volume of the hose through the regulator first before fuel will flow. Also keep in mind we are talking about 900 psi (N2O) vs 5-7 psi (fuel).....any purging will be done much faster with more pressure against that air in the lines. This means the system will go immediately lean on initial application. Then the fuel will purge itself and straighten out. The problem becomes: how long does it stay lean before the fuel catches up and corrects the mixture AND what damage was done while it was lean??
Even when the fuel system is fully primed and IF it doesn't bleed down again from sitting, there is the issue of inertia.....and fuel is subject to inertia as much as anything. If a person Tee's into the fuel line and uses the straight through section of the tee for the OEM plumbing and the 90 degree fitting for the nitrous fuel supply, the fuel will have inertia while flowing straight through the connector. When the nitrous system requires fuel, it will want it immediately....but the first thing that has to happen is that some of the fuel flowing will have to take a 90 degree turn...and it will take time for that to occur...which will starve the regulator for the first 1/2 sec or so.
There is a simple solution: put the return to the tank on the 90 degree fitting, the fitting to the regulator on the straight through section, and during normal use,force all the fuel to make that turn. When the nitrous system is activated, the solenoid will open and a pressure drop will happen in the nitrous fuel line. The constant bombardment of fuel against the static fuel in the line to the regulator will provide immediate and constant pressure and volume to the nitrous system. Any fuel not used by the nitrous system will make the turn and get returned to the tank.
The benefit of the return regulator is that the fuel is constantly being circulated...and therfore no inertia issues. The only section that is static is after the solenoid...and that can't be helped regardless of how we try.
I think the metal block (the modified fuel filter) is a check valve to keep fuel against the regulator even when the bike is shut off. A person would technically not have to do this with a return style regulator.
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RAC4IT
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Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted April 06, 2005 08:55 AM
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VincentHill
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posted April 06, 2005 10:12 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 6 Apr 2005 11:21
The 1st unit is to keep the fuel Injection operating under the same pressure and operating the same way it normally operated. Remember I have two (2) of these check valves and the 1st one has no modifications what so ever
The fuel I get "AFTER" the check valve has done its job (Think of the fuel I get after the 1st pictured unit as what is returned to the fuel tank)
I am now taking that fuel (Greatly lowered pressure down to about 15 PSI) and using it to operate my Bypass Fuel system that feeds the NOS Injectors. Once the fuel leaves the bypass fuel regulator, it needs the least amount of restriction possible so that it will not raise the "Set Pressure" I have adjusted the regulator for. To do this, the bypassed fuel must not be under "ANY" Pressure. That is why I used 3/8 Fuel lines and drilled out the Tank Valve so that the fuel would just flow back into the tank. Any pressure in the Bypass / Return line will cause a Bypass regulator to operate under at least that amount of pressure.
You asked how I know it needed to be drilled and would be a restriction? Easy, the holes in the check valve were about 3/16 of an inch and I am using 3/8 (6/16 fuel line) By opening them up to 4/16 or with 2 holes 8/16 or 1/2 inch of total hole diameter I now have a larger hole than the fuel line and the valve will not be able to cause much restriction. Any change of directionor blockeage (The top of this unit is plugged so that the fuel exits out the sides and does not cavitate the rest of the fuel in the tank as badly.
I hope you understand now because I cannot explain it any better than I just have. Yes it is a little more thinking and work than the Normal system, But I am not looking for Normal or Easy. I want it to work as good as I possible can.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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NINJA12
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posted April 06, 2005 10:34 AM
Edited By: NINJA12 on 6 Apr 2005 11:38
I do understand, thanks.
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VincentHill
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posted April 06, 2005 11:58 AM
quote:
I do understand, thanks.
AMEN! (Do not tell anyone, but when I was first working this out, I had a hard time trying to figure out WHAT IN THE World I WAS DOING!!) Making things that do not exist and no one has worked out before seems to be part of my life style. Going up HILL when everyone else is going Down HILL 
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ninja12
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posted April 07, 2005 08:35 PM
Quick question since there is a concern about the Muzzy type regulator not handling the high fuel pressure. Would it help the reliablity to use the return line since it is regulated down to ~15 psi even if it is a deadhead regulator. Assuming muzzy pump.
Anyone use a fuel pressure safety switch, are they worth the trouble?
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VincentHill
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posted April 08, 2005 05:40 AM
The fuel "OUT" of the Fuel Injection "BEFORE" it goes through the tank pressure release valve "IS AT FULL PRESSURE" It is only after the tank valve that it is 15 to 16 psi.
I used the Fuel pressure switch and did not have it adjusted properly and it turned the NOS Off during a run!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ninja12
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posted April 09, 2005 02:24 PM
IF the tank check valve opens at 15 psi, how can the line maintain the full pressure?
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VincentHill
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posted April 09, 2005 05:18 PM
quote:
IF the tank check valve opens at 15 psi, how can the line maintain the full pressure?
Full pressure "IN" to the system , the 15 PSI is needed to allow fuel flow and keep the injectors opening at their pressure. If you block off the return line with a guage, you will see full pressure there also.
Next answer is, can you imagine fuel entering the tank under 40+ psi and the disruption to the fuel in the tank that would cause?
Better answer is, this is how Kawasai set the system to work and getting 15 PSI is great for me so I am glad they did it that way.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bossman12r
Zone Head
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posted April 10, 2005 06:26 AM
I looked at my regulator today and it said max inlet 400 psig an outlet max 15 psig
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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ninja12
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posted April 10, 2005 09:10 AM
what would the return line pressure be if you simply put a Tee in it with a guage?
I understand why the return line pressure is 45 if you block or eliminate the tank valve.
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VincentHill
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posted April 10, 2005 10:52 AM
Putting a "T" in the outlet side will still have 41 to 43 PSI
Bossman, You have spoken about 2 regulators. The factory and the "Red One" Which one had 400 PSI inlet and 15 psi outlet?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bossman12r
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posted April 11, 2005 05:07 AM
The RED NOS one.
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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VincentHill
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posted April 11, 2005 06:42 AM
Thanks, Who makes this and do you have a part number.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bossman12r
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posted April 12, 2005 06:03 AM
It is the same one that Muzzy used in their kit. I e mailed holly and I am waiting on a reply about the 400 psig inlet info. To see if it means it can handle 400 psi on the inlet side.
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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VincentHill
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posted April 12, 2005 04:36 PM
quote:
It is the same one that Muzzy used in their kit. I e mailed holly and I am waiting on a reply about the 400 psig inlet info. To see if it means it can handle 400 psi on the inlet side.
THANKS, I AM DAM Courious?????
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bossman12r
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posted April 13, 2005 05:32 AM
Well I just got off the phone with NOS tech and the Red NOS regulaotr #15810nos that has inlet 400 psig on the data plate will work just fine for anything under 50lbs of pressure.
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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canadamaxxer
Pro
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posted April 13, 2005 06:28 AM
Edited By: canadamaxxer on 13 Apr 2005 08:03
What is funny is that I emailed NOS's Tech Dept and they told me that Pn#15810 was good only to 15 PSI inlet pressure. Those guys need to get their shit together!!!!
quote:
Hello,
It's not recommended to go 15psi inlet pressure max.
Thanks
Shane Whitescarver
NOS Technical
Service Representative
Your question was:
I need to know what the maximum inlet pressure spec is for this part #:
15810NOS
Thank you
If you have further questions, please reply directly to this email with history without altering the subject line.
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bossman12r
Zone Head
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posted April 13, 2005 10:09 AM
I'm going to do a test this friday and just see if it can hold the pressure.
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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bossman12r
Zone Head
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posted April 18, 2005 05:32 AM
Competed testing, set the regulator at 4lbs so I can use the 4 piont spead on the fuel to nos jet. Ran the bike up to 10 rpms with a movement of the needle on the fuel gauge. I guess it is holding back the pressure.
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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VincentHill
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posted April 20, 2005 01:35 PM
I do not think a few times is the problem or even a few hundred miles is the problem. I think over the real life time period may be the problem and the Dia-fram gives up. I am going to look more into this.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bossman12r
Zone Head
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posted May 06, 2005 06:27 AM
If you look on the datya plate on the bottom of the regulator their is a phone number to the people that make the part. They said it can hold the 50 psi and not fail. I now have a even point spead of 4 ea 26 jets for a 100 shot.
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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VincentHill
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posted May 06, 2005 03:47 PM
quote:
If you look on the datya plate on the bottom of the regulator their is a phone number to the people that make the part. They said it can hold the 50 psi and not fail. I now have a even point spead of 4 ea 26 jets for a 100 shot.
I wonder where the people that sell them and Make them get off with telling us that it cannot handle more than 15 PSI. My feeling was that the Muzzy part that "LOOKED" like the ones we were talking about was just that LOOKED but was not that same part. I could not imagine that Muzzy would ever sell anything that would not hold up specially something that sould be a danger if it failed. So my thinking was just that Muzzy either had some special made or found some that looked like the ones we are talking about but were different!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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