bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted October 31, 2004 02:17 PM
02 zx12 head?
I know the 02 head is alot cleaner than a 00 head and the boots are port matched to the intake runners. So how much would be help to get it ported?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
  
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Ra12r
Zone Head
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posted October 31, 2004 06:24 PM
Where is your restriction?
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bossman12r
Zone Head
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posted October 31, 2004 07:22 PM
I guess maybe the casting in the head. That is what I am asking, does an 02 head need to be ported and polished?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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Spyral
Pro
Unpredictable individual.
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posted October 31, 2004 08:24 PM
Dont think it makes much difference on stock bore...
Bored or stroked motors see a slight hp increase.. the larger the better
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted November 01, 2004 05:10 AM
Spyral, that is not true!
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted November 01, 2004 06:40 AM
What is your take on it mike? Have you compared an 02 head to an 00?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted November 01, 2004 07:47 AM
I have not seen an 02 head up close. only 00 and 01's. I believe I might be getting one soon I can look at. though.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
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posted November 01, 2004 10:41 AM
There are folks here that also believe in the "MOTO's" porting method which actually decreases cross diameter by 35% I believe. Maybe they will chime in........Canadamaxxer?
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canadamaxxer
Pro
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posted November 01, 2004 03:07 PM
 Edited By: canadamaxxer on 1 Nov 2004 15:09
Ra,
Yeah I still stand by the reduction method.....but unfortunately do not have the facilities to scientifically test to prove anything.
Here is the truth about what I found so far. I have two 2000's, both with 1270's. #1 (black) has K+N's, block off plates, PC3r (max timing 5 degrees at WOT), Hindle race pipe, reduction porting, stock valve timing, stock clutch, 17-48 gearing. #2(red) had stock filters (only the mesh screens remaining), Ti Force pipe, Carrillo rods, adjustable cams (set to Muzzy's recommended timing...no idea what...would actually like to know...anyone?), Muzzy Clutch (complete), PC3r (5 degrees max at WOT), stock gearing.
On different days (totally different weather of course, too) on the same factory pro dyno, the black bike made 156hp, the red bike made 160hp. This is having tuned the maps as well as possible. My questions are: did the stock clutch on the black bike slip (it doesn't feel good at all compared to the Muzzy clutch)? Would the black bike benefit from valve timing adjustment? Is the Ti-force pipe better than the Hindle (esp. for a big bore)? What about the difference in air filters? Any one of those factors could have made the difference.
The horsepower figures quoted are low...I know that. The numbers I ran on that dyno are the highest they had ever seen on a street legal bike. As an example they ran a mildly modded busa and got about 140 HP out of it. These are also approximately the same as the numbers made by Blackfoot Cycle's (in Calgary) Race GSXR 1000's (which is pretty cool to me). I also ran both the bikes on the dyno at Sportbike West and got numbers that relatively worked out (185 HP for the red bike). All I know is that I can pull away from zx10's at any time, in any gear without any problems with either bike. I could not say that of a stock 12R. I also can honectly say that I like the way the power is made on the black bike better than the red one.....maybe that is the advantage of reduction porting......
I would love the opportunity to swap pieces back and forth and really figure it out, while running on the dyno, but that is not going to happen right now. I need to get a dyno in my hot little hands and then I will happily employ scientific method to figure this out.
I can say that at the very least, if I had a stock head in my hands (regardless of why) I would take the time to port match the intake runners and also grind and smooth off the rough parting line of the head casting. Of the 12R heads that I have had apart, they all have had very rough parting lines running down either side of the intake ports and that cannot help the flow. I am not a fan of polishing intake ports (boundry layer effect), but I would smooth and radius the ports lightly and get rid of those nasty little casting bumps.
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted November 01, 2004 05:03 PM
The 02 head ahs matched boots from the factory and is smoother lines than an 00-01 head. What do you mean by reduced, you weld up the runners alittle bit?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 01, 2004 05:48 PM
You use a 2 part epoxy (JB weld) and raise the port floor up until the height of the port is 65% of the intake valve diameter (JB weld expands at the same rate as aluminium and is keyed into the port...as a result of the prep and application of the epoxy). Then smooth and blend the ports, and away you go.
Are the boots on the 02 and up bikes numbered? If not, how can there be an assurance that all of the ports and all of the boots are identical and therefore are port matched? I am not talking about gross mismatches here, I am talking about an edge that you can just feel with a finger, either when you insert or retract your finger from the port (sound sexy, doesn't it?).
I found, at least with my heads, that the boots could be moved around quite a bit within the bolt holes in the boots themselves....and could either be lined up very well or very poorly, and those sharp edges do nothing good for flow. I lined mine up as well as possible, marked them 1 through 4 and then began to smooth both the aluminium and the rubber of the boot. The final difference? There was not a sharp edge to be found anywhere in those ports. Did it make a real difference? I will never know......unless I win the lottery and get a dyno tomorrow.
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TurboBlew
Moderator
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posted November 01, 2004 06:04 PM
Mike, whats not true? The larger the motor the bigger the valves? Or that stock bore motors wont benefit from port work?
quote:
Spyral, that is not true!
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted November 01, 2004 06:05 PM
canadamaxxer ,
swap the ecu's between both bikes and watch what happens.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted November 01, 2004 06:23 PM
Canada, in response to your clutch question. The only difference is really the springs. Er, on the 2000 the hub is not factory drilled for more oil though and the muzzy hub is drilled. Easy to do yourself though. The clutch fibers and steels are KMC OEM. My advice is simply get some springs from schnitz and put in all six. Also build your stack with two 1.6 steels together placed in the center and then have your hub sitting about 60% up from bottoming out by looking in the oil fill hole. Everyone has a different style of clutch build, but my clutch last a long time. IE I currently have over 500 passes and 6000mi on my R6 and I run 6.90's-7.00's in the 1/8 with 1.70's 60 ft all day (BACK TO BACK) at least ten before resting my body.
Your 4 HP difference on the dyno doesn't mean anything! Check your MPH in the 1/4. They are probably the same.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
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posted November 01, 2004 07:21 PM
JC: OK do tell......do you suspect that one ECU is one of those "high altitude" units, or do you have another trick up your sleeve? I would love to hear about this....
Ra: Thanks for the advise on the clutch. I need to take it apart this winter and check for blued steels and then check the stack height. As far as the drilling goes: can I just emulate the muzzy drilled pattern using a 1/16" drill bit? What about flat spotting the puller shaft? I also think I may have a set of high pressure springs in my toolbox...I will have to check once I get out of this freaking leg brace.......I have all the time in the world right now and can't even get down the stairs to go to the garage.....What a pain in the ass!!!!
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted November 01, 2004 07:38 PM
trust me try it, it has nothing to do with high altitude or anything, just try it
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 01, 2004 09:08 PM
JC: I will file this info away and give it a try in the spring.....although it has been melting here, there is still about a foot of snow here in places...and real winter has just started.
Do you have theories about why swapping ECU's has a positive effect? I'm also assuming that it's good for one bike and bad for the other, right?
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted November 01, 2004 10:41 PM
quote:
Mike, whats not true? The larger the motor the bigger the valves? Or that stock bore motors wont benefit from port work?
quote:
Spyral, that is not true!
Larger is better, is not always true.
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted November 01, 2004 10:42 PM
Hey maxxer are both of your bike's canadian?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted November 01, 2004 11:39 PM
the guy who does my head jobs  says no-no-no to larger valves on zx12; says kwaks valves do the job; EVEN with my hi CR big block.
there's alot of opinion, his is just one more (that i trust)
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canadamaxxer
Pro
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posted November 02, 2004 06:48 AM
Edited By: canadamaxxer on 2 Nov 2004 06:51
MM: One bike is a US model and the other is Canadian. Will this make a difference with regards to the ECU's or are there other factors as well? Just a FYI: The US bike is the one with more HP.
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted November 02, 2004 06:59 AM
Nope but I think you will be surprised by the results,Make sure you have the bike on the dyno and do not change anything except the ecu.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 02, 2004 07:33 AM
I am now very curious about this whole thing. I can't wait to give it a try!!!
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted November 05, 2004 03:34 PM
So what is the verdic port and polish an 02 head or just get bigger cams?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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