posted April 24, 2004 07:26 PM
Edited By: ZX12Girl on 24 Apr 2004 20:36
I broke it!!!! Well....Bent it!!! I was running the busa on Friday and all of a sudden....3rd gear, 8 grand....the bike just lost power and the tack began to fluctuate between 8-9 grand not building any more power. Well.....I let off, coasted to the end of the track. The bike dies.....I go to start it again and hear the gut wrenching thug, thug, thug....shut the bike down and yell at Kzz1 that the bike is toast!!! Sure enough......Dropped the freaking valve....uuuurgghhhh!!!!
Check out what I did to the #3 cylinder exhaust valve.
You are looking from the exhaust opening into the valve port. You can see the valve stem and if you look to the bottom right...you can see the head of the valve broke off and crammed back up into the port. oooouuuuchhhhh!
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posted April 24, 2004 09:50 PM
Thats not good Ang...Sorry to hear that...Does that mean your not going to MIR on the 14th?
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posted April 24, 2004 11:22 PM
Uggggggghhhh!!! I can safely say that I know exactly what that feels like; did it to #1 cyl on my 12. The valve face parted from the stem where it was joined during mfg. Looks like a set of 1 pc stainless valves are in yr Busa's future, eh? Time to call Kibblewhite.
I hope yr head is fixable (mine wasn't...)
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posted April 25, 2004 05:38 AM
Crotchrocket....We are going to try to get the bike done before May 14th.
Kzz1 is already searching for a head and new piston. The valve smashed up the piston and the head is not looking pretty. We will know more when it is totally apart.
posted April 25, 2004 06:40 AM
I did this once on my 1015 superbike engine. I took the head to Ladd porting and they welded up the head, installed a new seat and machined the combustion chamber for about (Remember this was 22 years ago) Less that $200. Nowadays, my guess would be about $500. But considering I had several thousand in the head that Fujio Yoshimura had ported I was not about to lose this head. I still have this head.
The design limit of a 4 stroke engine is the limit of the exhaust valve. When I take my 12 apart, I am going to remove the guide seals on the exhaust side to allow a little more oil to cool the valve!
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posted April 25, 2004 08:15 AM
Edited By: kzz1 on 25 Apr 2004 09:19
Cowboy,
Was that with the stock valves or stainless valves? Do you think it was from a floating valve or the valve broke / came apart?
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posted April 25, 2004 08:28 AM
Edited By: kzz1 on 25 Apr 2004 09:29
On the Busa....We have the heavy duty valve springs and I was NOT spraying NOS and did not tag the rev limited.
Now...On the ZX12R...I have the stock springs and spraying a 40 hp shot of NOS. I am a little concerned after seeing this Busa.
posted April 25, 2004 09:37 AM
Edited By: entropy on 25 Apr 2004 10:53
Angi,
My exh valve head is also jammed sidewise into the exh port, but only after it beat the shit outa the piston and combustion chamber. Gouge in the cyl was repaired by Milennium.
On my bike i think it happened by having the valves just "touch" the pistons when it lost the oil pump drive shaft and lost the bearings. Could just barely see a valve imprint in the carbon. The head was disassembled and the valves seemed fine so I didn't replace em... A decision I regretted
the 2 pc OEM exh valves seem to be weak where they are joined IF they have any unusual service (like tapping the pistons). A set of valves is cheaper than a head ($1200 guides only). Look at the pistons VERY closely.
Also: pull all the valves and see if any stems are even a little bit tight sliding thru the guides. They should be as smooth sliding as..., as..., as... Well, let's just say that they should not have ANY tight spots (bent valve stem).
Also, also: look at the notch in the valve stem where the keepers sit (old farts like me need to use a magnifying glass (n/j). The guy (Andy) who is currently doing a 5 angle etc on my head noticed that some of the keeper notches were slightly beat up, signifying movement. I learned last time not to have less than pristene valves, they are being replaced.
Also, also, also: (if you have aftermarket springs, etc)
Andy noticed that the aluminum shims which came with my Muzzy cam kit were being beaten up from having the valve springs sit directly on the shims. No directions with the cams/springs, so I did NOT put the little stepped washer-thing under the springs (over the aluminum spacer). He's fixing that too.
Just my experience...
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posted April 25, 2004 11:28 AM
All i can say is i know how you feel b/c not to long a go i threw a rod out of the block at 9 grand and blew the back tire at about 120. But thank god i didnt go down
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posted April 25, 2004 11:56 AM
quote:All i can say is i know how you feel b/c not to long a go i threw a rod out of the block at 9 grand and blew the back tire at about 120. But thank god i didnt go down
posted April 25, 2004 02:20 PM
When I was looking at Pierre bike, I noticed that the JE Pistons valve reliefs were just a little off center and that the NOS (When using an air shifter) can and will lift the exhaust valve off of the seat (From the larger explosion during the time the NOS and fuel Builds up during the shifts).
This is the reason I am Using no Air Shifter and HD Springs with steel retainers. I had the JE Pistons (At least I ordered this) to have a .004 larger radius on the valve relief. I also make sure that I have at least .040 squish band and .060 between the valve and piston. I do not know if this is "Conservative" but it has kept me out of trouble along with not using exhaust valve guide seals. AT Daytona I actually took a drill and made the top of the guides concave to give the valves even more oil. Most people could only see a puff of smoke coming out of a corner after braking and down shifting.
Ken, Do you actually know the process they use to "Weld" the stem and valve head together?
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posted April 25, 2004 02:29 PM
Well...Took the head off!!!
All the exhaust valves tagged the pistons. It appears that the #3 just could not take the impact and broke loose.
Now...Why would the pistons tag the valves??...well, We really only have one major difference in the bike and that was the extended ECU. The extended ECU allows you to have an extra 600 rpm's before it hits the rev limiter. Last Friday, I ran the bike all the way to 11,400g and then shifted...using about 4-500 of the extra 600 rpm's. I think the tolerances were just too tight with the shaved head to take the extra rpm's and tagged the exhaust valves.
1) Rev the bike about 4-500 rpm's beyond factory setting (Not hitting the limiter because of the ECU)
2) Piston tags the valves
3) The keeper was knocked loose on #3 exhaust valve during the impact
4) The valve dropped
5) Piston hit the valve head again and breaks it off
6) The valve head gets beat around by the piston
7) And finally gets wedged in the exhaust port.
Looks like the head can be saved and will definitely have some new shinny stainless valves. The extended ECU is a thing of the past and hopefully, I am a happy camper in a couple weeks!!
posted April 25, 2004 03:51 PM
Angi,
I would keep the extended ECU, just not use the the extra revs unless you spin the tire, then it might keep you from going into the limiter, which I also believe is no good on a built motor. I have no proof of that; gut feeling.
How much "squish" did the motor have???
are you sure your rod & crank bearings are good???? Loose bearings will also let yr pistons hit the valves.
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posted April 25, 2004 03:58 PM
Is it possible that the springs weren't bringing the valve back up fast enough with the extended RPMs? Kinda like 'floating' a valve on a auto engine?
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quote:Is this the drop-off point when shifting out of 2nd gear?
"....3rd gear, 8 grand...."
it just seems like an odd time for it to happen.....
I hear you. That was very odd. I did not use all of the potential of the ECU other than last Friday. I made the last three passes testing the extended ECU. The bike was fine until the last two and then the mph was around 138 - 139....Now I ran more mph than that on these bikes when they were stock.
We thought something was odd but the track was total crap....No traction all the way down. So....shook it off as the track and went back this Friday. The first two runs were the same as the last two from last week. I noticed that the bike just was not pulling. Then....3rd pass.. thug, thug.
I think that we actually tagged the pistons last week.
quote:Is it possible that the springs weren't bringing the valve back up fast enough with the extended RPMs? Kinda like 'floating' a valve on a auto engine?
Maybe...but we do have heavy duty valve springs in there.
posted April 26, 2004 06:35 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 26 Apr 2004 08:01
quote:
quote:Ken, Do you actually know the process they use to "Weld" the stem and valve head together?
Inquiring minds would like to know.....Enlighten me Dad #2!!!!
The other half
ZX12Girl
When I heard this it made sense but was not what I thought they did. The take the raw stems and valve heads and spin them at high speed against each other to "Fuse" them and they become one. I have not seen the process. Some how in my mind, I thought they were robot welded together.
The squish looks safe to me and the scenario you stated is the classic what happens. Mz. valve does not like being told when to close by Mr. Piston and loses it's hold on the situationand flys off at the keepers and chases Mr. Piston back down and knocks a hole in it's head when he came up to the Head man and Mz. Valve refused to let him get close. It looks like you got the engine shut down as fast as possible.
After looking at everything that was said, I see one thing that has not been mentioned but we all know the Busa is bad at "Cam chain control"! It needs to be checked for length between Pins and the tensioner checked. You do have a stronger after market tensioner in the bike??
Just the little I know about Ken and you makes me think that it was more a loss of valve control due to mechanical limits being reached or changed as opposed to mechanical set up!
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posted April 24, 2004 07:26 PM
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posted April 24, 2004 08:29 PM
posted April 25, 2004 02:35 PM
