DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
|
posted December 20, 2001 08:49 PM
Sorry to hear about the bike Harry. I think it's still pissed at you for throwing it off a cliff. Good luck with the dealer, I'd hate to see your ugly side too, it must be pretty bad considering what the good side looks like. 
Get it running, it's riding season around here.
Take care,
Dave
____________
DaytonaSportbikes Forum
   
|
ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted December 20, 2001 08:55 PM
Man Harry...Your luck is kind of shitty lately!!!!That is terrible news.
I can think of one positive thing - At least now you can't tease all of us Northerners with the fact that your still riding!!! I guess that would just be a positive for me
|
ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted December 20, 2001 09:07 PM
quote:
Hey Harry -
Re. the labor for tearing your motor, if it's under warranty I don't see why you have to pay.
I was going to have my ZX6E looked at one time and they said that I would have to pay the tear down time unless it did in fact turn out to be covered by Kawasaki. They are just making sure that if it turns out to be a NON Covered issue that they still get paid for their time. If it is Kawasaki's problem then they will pay.
I wasn't very pleased when they tried to explain this to me either!!
Good luck Harry!! I hope they don't try to break you!!!
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 20, 2001 11:33 PM
Wheelies- Oil starvation
Now we are getting back to my original post, about 15 or so posts back. Where is the oil pickup oin the 12R? It doesn't really matter for me, as I don't wheelie ofter, or very long.
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
RidgeRacer
Pro
Posts: 1309
|
posted December 21, 2001 05:10 PM
A picture is worth a thousand words....or so they say.
C in the bottom image is the oil pickup.
Looks pretty deep to me. Could be farther back in the sump maybe.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 22, 2001 09:38 AM
Crotch, et al,
The "known fact" that "EVERBODY" knows about the cause of bearing failures is wrong and those of us that work with these things everyday have known it's wrong for several years. Go read my post in the "4 wheeled kawasakis zone" for the short answer on the 11's. Nothing is harder on these engines than sports car or sprint car use and bearing failures are just not happening any longer now that people understand the need to keep the proper amount of oil in the engine. The so called "oil bypass" was a small band-aid which gave a little more latitude but never addressed the root cause. Similarly, the ZX-12 is built with very little "slop" in the design. It is basically a race engine from the factory. The design assumes NO LESS than the minimum recommended oil quantity for engine life. Any less and you risk failure. There will always be the occasional failure no matter what. The bearings won't fail as long as there is oil under pressure feeding them.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
zx9r
Expert Class
Posts: 227
|
posted December 22, 2001 10:08 AM
 Edited By: zx9r on 22 Dec 2001 10:09
My bearings had failed. We caught it while installing the 1270. I was a 1/4 hour from seizure.Thank God, Kevin caught it in time before it was a mess like Harry's.
Have there been other 12 owners with problems with the rod bearings that you guys know about??
____________
-----00 GREEN 1270-----
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted December 22, 2001 02:49 PM
quote:
NO LESS than the minimum recommended oil quantity for engine life. Any less and you risk failure. Doug
Doug,
What happened to the rumor that the spec in the book was higher than needed and running 1qt lower in the 12 picked up power? Are you saying that those of us running oil levels that are barely visible in the sight glass risk bearing failure? Damn I hope not. I've been running like that since 300mi (now at 8500).
While we are on the topic. What do you recommend as far as oil weight, brand, and quantity for the 1361 motors. Mine is being built now.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 23, 2001 05:36 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 23 Dec 2001 17:40
That's exactly what I'm saying. I run mine mid-window. It's true if you overfill it you'll lose power. So don't over fill it. But don't under fill it, either.
Think about this; Let's say your oil pan at the height of the window is about 9" x 10" ('cause it is) That's 90 square inches. Lower the oil by .5" That's 45 cubic inches of oil. That is 737 cc's, which is about 3/4 of a liter, which is 20% of the oil capacity if the engine. Go ahead and lower it an inch, and you decrease the oil in the engine by 40%. You must always remember that when the engine is running, especially at high speed, much of the oil is NOT at the bottom of the sump, it's up running around in the damn motor doing it's job of cooling and lubricating!
I run Motul 300V 15/50 full synthetic.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
anesthesiac12
Novice Class
Posts: 85
|
posted December 23, 2001 08:36 PM
In my particular case, when i tore the engine apart for modification episode #1, My mains and mostly my rod bearings were pounded pretty hard. I checked the clearance on them and the looset one was .002". Thats after 3000miles! The tight end of the spec. is about that. The tightest one was .0016". Way to tight......Factory had the clearances off
|
mrfast
Expert Class
Posts: 114
|
posted December 24, 2001 08:11 AM
Having spent the last 5 years as a service mgr at a Kaw dealer I can tell you that if Kaw decides to cover your bike,the only extra charge you should have to come up with are,oil,filter and coolant.I can also tell you that Kaw usually covers claims if an extended warr was purchased,sometimes after it has expired!The tech line deals with a lot of "know it-all smart asses"all day long and I hope your dealer has a good working relationship with tech as this will help your case greatly.If for some reason they refuse coverage,call the customer hotline,I am sure they will compromise and cover parts only.In my experience, you shouldnt have a problem though,Kawasaki is a great company to deal with and stands behind their product!
|
rick
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
|
posted December 24, 2001 04:01 PM
kawasaki flatrate to remove, rebuild and reinstall the motor is 12 hours. The problem is that it is very difficult to do all of this out in the field by a mechanic who may only do one or two a year. Obviously the more he does the faster he becomes.
Rick
|
mrfast
Expert Class
Posts: 114
|
posted December 25, 2001 06:50 AM
Hi Rick, 12 hours for all that work is crazy, but that is the dealers problem, not the customers.Sometimes Kaw tech will give the dealer additional labor for some larger jobs.That is also why it is important to have it serviced where the warranty was purchased, since that dealer made the money (read,huge mark-up)on the extended warranty.
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 03, 2002 05:21 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 3 Jan 2002 05:22
bearing failure
Some basics about bearing failure...
Its usually due to the crank contacting the bearing 99% of the time.
Bearing delamination is very, very rare now.
The crank is supposed to "float" in the block and the rods float on the rod journals.
There are several reasons for the crank to touch. Some are manufacturing errors like tapered journals and pins. Mis aligned saddles in the block. Bent crank. Loose or tight clearances at assembly. High spots. Rotating assembly severly out of balance. And theres more.
Then theres "in service" problems like low oil pressure. Too thin of an oil. Detonation. Reving on cold start up. Airation of the oil. Over heating of the oil. And theres also more of these.
Any bearing material migration is a sign of contact. Small scuffing is "normal" due to cold start contact for a few seconds after the bike has sat for days/weeks. Most good oil filters have check valves to help prevent this.
You are using the CORRECT oil filter for the zx12r arnt you?
Then theres "hard" partacles that get into the bearings. They embed themselves into the bearing (this is part of the bearings job) and make contact on the journal in one small spot causing additional heat buildup. This sometimes causes delamination of the bearing but not often with todays bearings.
You need to figure out WHY the crank contacted the rod/main bearings and try to minimize it.
All this assumes that the factory oil pressure and journal size are calculated correctly by the factory.
How many of you notice higher main bearing wear on the 3.75" SB Chevy cranks when the main journals are cut down to fit the 350 blocks and you use the 6" rods? Theres a reason that the 400's had bigger mains from every other SBC out there.
It would be interesting to take apart several unrun zx12 production engines and take some measurements.
I could only hope that they hold tighter to spec than the average production automotive engine.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
|
posted January 03, 2002 06:14 PM
Hopefully I will know something on my bike soon.I ran my oil Mid to lower 1/2 in the site glass.I ALWAYS warmed my bike up before riding it and never reved it up until it was warm.I changed oil frequently and changed the filter (OEM 1070)every time I changed the oil except for the first oil change which was done at 400 miles (second oil change done at 800 miles)I used regular oil until I had just over 5000 miles then I switched to mobil MX4T.I did run my bike very hard and frequently reved it to the redline.I bought it to ride fast not cruise around like a pussy!
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted January 03, 2002 09:00 PM
I thought you liked cruzing like a pussy, or was that pussy out cruzing, no maybe it was cruzing for pussy, yea yea thats it!!
MM
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
|
posted January 03, 2002 09:59 PM
SSSHHHH!!!!
Don't let the cat out of the bag mike!
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
|
harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
|
posted January 08, 2002 03:45 PM
#4 rod bearing,#3 rod bearing and......
Main bearing on the rt. side with #4 rod bearing spinning and locking up solid.I talked to the service guy and not the mechanic that actually did the work (he had already left for the day) Didn't say what caused it. but said they will have to get with Kawasaki to see if they would cover it.We'll see. I'll look at it personally when I go back to N. Carolina.
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
|
anesthesiac12
Novice Class
Posts: 85
|
posted January 08, 2002 08:14 PM
I think i told you about the ezcesivly tight clearances i found last spring when i tore mine down didnt i. Factory had like 1.5-1.7 thousanth rod bearing clearances. My factory bearings were shot. Good thing i cant keep my hands out of my motors and started building it when i did.
|
sling shot
Novice Class
Posts: 43
|
posted January 09, 2002 10:55 AM
Harry that sucks on the bearings spinning. I think ZTurbO could not have said it better ..."laying down the 12 appears to be it's death sentence." From the research on another forum that died and the thread is lost now forever, it appeared that if you laid it down on the exhaust side, all bikes spun the bearings shortly after; something to do with an air pocket where it wouldn't prime thru the oil filter that drained from lying on it's side. Go figure ...
____________
grabbing life by the throat and hanging on for all the thrills I can get
|
ZXALAN
Expert Class
Posts: 156
|
posted January 09, 2002 07:27 PM
Harry, if your bike was still under warranty and it had the correct oil level and servie receipts proving that the oil changes were completed either by yourself or a dealer, Kawasaki HAS to warranty it. If they turn it down, call kawi's customer service dept and complain like crazy. They will get it taken care of. Now if it was a tranny problem or something that gets "abused" they may not but in this case I think they will fix it. I work for a BMW/ Triumph dealer and we do this shit all the time. We have just recently repaired two different trannys, but were slightly out of warranty but we still fixed em. Shoot me an email if you have any questions.
|
harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
|
posted January 16, 2002 10:53 AM
Sounds like they're going to cover it.
I am back in NC and went to the dealer today and I asked what caused this? I didn't get to talk to the mechanic but the service guy said "Well wheelies will cause that", I didn't say anything except that I had the correct amount of oil and he said they have ordered the parts.I said what parts? He said all of them. I then asked to see my bike so he took me in the back and I got to see my bike. THE FUCKIN ENGINE IS STILL IN THE FRAME! The head and cylinders were pulled off. I then told him that all the damage wouldn't be know till the crank was out and you could inspect the crank and cases. I mighta been born at night , but it wasn't last night. I have been a machinist for 26 years (they don't know this) #4 rod was locked up like two dogs in heat and #3 was tight.So the saga continues.......All conversation was friendly and they seem like pretty good people.We'll see!They are supposed to start on it soon. They'll be seeing me about every 2-3 days.I want my bike back BAD!!
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
|
Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
|
posted January 16, 2002 02:00 PM
Damn Harry.....
Man I hate that you are having to go through this crap. If you lived closer I'd let you ride on back of my 12 and be my BIATCH. (I owed you that)
Seriously I hate it for you man, I hope it all works out for you, and that the guys at the dealership know WTF they are doing.
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
|
harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
|
posted January 24, 2002 09:50 AM
Break in again
They said they have all the parts except for the rings.I talked to the mechanic today just for a moment as he was busy but he said the crank was toast as was a couple of the rods.So I'm getting a new crank,rods,all new bearings and new rings so I'll have to do the breakin all over again! FUCK! Oh well at least I'll be riding again hopefully in a couple of weeks,That's what I'm talking about!
He didn't say what he thought caused it.
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
|
kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
|
posted January 24, 2002 12:21 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 24 Jan 2002 12:29
Sounds good Harry!
Take some pictures of the crank for us if you get a chance???
I've got the 1361-project motor apart now and...EVERYTHING in this motor looks...GOOOD...
The bearings actually looked better than Dean's ZRX bearings that we just replaced...
This motor was Drag-raced regularly so...I was happy to see everything in such good condition...
Oh ya...LOTS of sand in the air-box (stock filters)...so I was VERY surprised how good the cylinders looked?!?!?!
There was some oil in the airbox also (had too much oil in motor at some time) so THAT helped keep most of the sand out of the motor...SHOOOOOO...
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC