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Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted October 28, 2003 10:45 AM
Disposable pistons? All this talk of 'most efficient' engines has me wondering...What's the most efficient design? A reciprocating engine has a big energy budget in stopping the piston, bringing it back up and compressing the mixture. Plus the energy budget for valves, lubrication, cooling, etc. How could you remove some of those energy drains and still have a motive force.
Maybe gasoline isn't the answer at all. All chemical explosions produce heat and gas. So we need to find the most efficient producer of that (nitroglycerin?) and harness it the most efficient way possible. Like maybe a superstrong cylinder that has a piston that moves the vehicle once, then falls out the back?
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82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted October 28, 2003 03:53 PM
ninjaman12r - Rotary motors are incrediable. I'm on the Board of Directors of Moller International. This was the company that invented the SuperTrapp exhaust system, as well as builder of VTOL aircraft & aerobots.
We've been developing rotary engines for 30 years. Check out the site for more info if your interested. www.moller.com
We've got some incrediable stuff going on with rotary motors.
posted October 28, 2003 04:13 PM
until the price comes down,it's only a dream.Sweet dream!
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
posted October 28, 2003 09:02 PM
swft - don't know if I should admit that or not. But we have 2 of them. One gets used all the time. The other has almost no miles and sits as a display vehicle with all the evolutionary "wankle" stuff.
jw - because they are believers in the technology. OMC was the other, but we bought all the tooling, rights, patents, etc. from them to compliment our own. The first rotary motors way, way back had some seal issues and they got a bad rap. It was easily fixed. We've taken apart some of the early RX-7 motors after 150k miles and found almost no wear. Mazda kinda blew-it on the latest version (RX-8). It's a cool car, but they made way too high of a hp claim and the ended up recalling all of them to modify their performance.
Just a little more insight, we've got these motors running on so many different fuels, diesel, alcohol, gas/water mix, soybean, just to name a few. And the things run great. We've built motors that weighed in the 66 lb area, and put out 160 hp. We've done some 4 rotor stuff putting out in the 400 plus range and sound like nothing you've ever heard in your life. We put a twin rotor in a XL1200 Yamaha PWC and went 68 mph. We've got some jetboats with twin/twin rotors that absolutely smoke on the Sacramento River.
We've patented in the area of 100 mods to these things because we feel it's a viable motor for the future. Simply, elegant, and reliable. Power to weight is nothing short of amazing. They can be watercooled, air cooled, oil cooled, and combo's of all. Worldwide, with the ease of which fuels can be changed, it's pretty appealing. We've splintered the company now into the engine division (Freedom Motors), and the aircraft division (Moller International). The VTOL is our ultimate goal. With the number of engines, redundancy factors of computer back ups (along with 4-6 motors) and the castostrofic back of a ballastically ejected parashoot, it can work as a future fix to the transportation problem that awaits us.
The DOT, Hughes, as well as NASA has been working with us a long time. They agree that the concept "needs" to work someday, because we can't build anymore highways on the ground. We have to go up with "highways in the sky". You preprogram your destination, and computers monitor flight path, weather, etc. and this "air highway" can become viable. The coolest thing is that you land near your home, and drive it the rest of the way. Space permitting, you take off and land at your home!
Anyway, hope I didn't rob this piston thread too badly. Check out the site for lot's more info. If you're ever going to be in Davis, CA, I can arrange a tour of the facility for you. Lot's of cool stuff. Wind tunnel, flight simulators, dyno, composite rooms, machinery that you won't see anywhere else in the world, and of course all the aircraft, aerobots, volantors, infinetly variable torque transmissions, electric cars, etc. The people we've got coming in from all over the world is pretty neat. All the way from the little guy who's already placed a deposit. To the multi-billion dollar companies from other countries monitoring and investing in the project for distribution rights in their regions.
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted October 29, 2003 06:45 AM
No way man, this was a free thinking thread, and seeing a snippet of your background and info on your company was priceless! Thanks greatly!
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82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted October 29, 2003 07:44 PM
bryant, i gotta say i love the idea of VTOL as much as anyone (mostly for the "cool" factor of flying of course), but im not sure that it will really be the way of the future the simple reason being resources. u can never make a flying vehicle nearly as efficient as a earth-bound one (far as i know), and given the already frightening problems with fuel supply & their environmental impacts, i honestly wonder if the VTOL could ever fly (excuse the pun)? i may be, and hope i am, missing something, but short of unpowered (like a magnet) antigravity pods r something, i cant see it being efficient enough. not to mention the unrelated issue of the lack of control available in the air, as compared to moving on the surface where u have high friction & this ever-so-convenient mass called earth to push against. i'm thinkin it would talk some serious breakthru in new technology to be feasible, something akin to the birth of IC. but damn, would i ever like to see it pulled off somehow
posted October 30, 2003 02:01 PM
The most efficient? Hummm?? I read about an adiobatic engine being tested by general motors that lost a small fraction of heat to the cooling system compared to a typical water cooled engine. It is 98% composite and doesnt have or need a traditional cooling system. It has an oil cooler but thats it. The rotating assembly is all plastic including the piston, and it revs to rediculus rpms. It turns a generator which in turn turns an electric motor. The parasitic losses are supposed to be tiny. It spins on ceramic bearings and has a varriable compression ratio. I doubt you will see it in a car anytime soon. But it might be the most fuel efficient engine, i dunno. They didnt claim that. I'll bet all the car makers have back rooms with all sorts of neat trick stuff.
posted October 31, 2003 01:45 PM
damn straight the gots all kind of trick stuff! i remember talkin to a co-worker when i worked at Ballard one summer, and he was talkin about the all ceramic engines the had that were rediculousl efficient. similar to what ur talkin about here i guess, tho no mention of plastics at that time. i honestly wonder how much truth there is to the claims that the oil industry is stiffling mass production of more efficient and cleaner engines, or if it reall is jsut that people arent interested. frankl i suspect its more of the latter than people suspect, given how lous the sales of hbrids seem to be. course the high prices dont help. got to drive one for at least 10 years to recoop the additional capital to buy the efficient car.
posted October 31, 2003 03:40 PM
My wife informed me that the actual production cost of the Toyota hybrid is a little over $27,000. The full sticker is much lower than that by several thousand dollars. Toyota is loosing alot of money on every one they produce. Why would they do this you ask? Well i can only guess that they are 1) hoping that sales will climb and offset the production and development cost or 2) they are trying to portray the company as "green friendly" and that they will get positive press for years to come from them helping to create the image of "careing" and inovative.
Think of it as advertising cost. And 3) maybe because the marketing people priced it in that slot so that they could at least sell some and recoup some development/production cost.
Incase anyone is wondering why I referenced my wife in the above statement, its becasue she is the General Manager of a Toyota/Mitsubishi dealer which makes her privey to all sorts of corporate policies and info.
Honda has also stepped up to the plate with a version. From what I understand its principal is much different but they are both hybrid electric/gas.
I hear that one runs the gas engine in the city and charges the bateries and used the electric motor on the highway and the other uses the gas engine on the highway and recharges then uses the electric in the city.
This explains why one gets better mileage in the city than the highway.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
posted October 31, 2003 03:49 PM
Myself, I believe that water is the fuel that will power everything in the "not as far away as you think" future. And I'm not talking about wooden water wheels . Fuel cells are being developed by dozens and dozens of companies. The company I work for makes ultrapure water systems and we have been selling lots of systems to new and well established companies that are all in need of incredably pure water to develop and manufacture fuelcells as well as run them. many of these companies are in Europe but even more are in the USA.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
posted October 31, 2003 07:54 PM
i got one major problem with fuel cells: where do u get the hydrogen? it may be the most abundant element on earth, but its always mixed in with something. by the time u'v spent the energy to extract it, are u reall saving all that much energy? mind u, my understanding fomr my brief stink at ballard is that the fuel cell is more efficient in converting fuel into power than current gas engines, so hopefull the answer is yes. but i guess the real attraction is not reduction in energ usage, just the environental impact of the energy consumption. given that statement, having a hydrid car run the gas engine in the city seems rather pointless.
posted December 20, 2003 07:27 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 20 Dec 2003 07:30
How about this engine ( http://www.ox2engine.com/engine_profile.htm )in the zx12r frame!
No tranny, just a fluid coupling clutch drive!
It will run on Bacon fat* or VP1 or home heating oil.
*You would need an electric tire warmer around your fuel tank if you decide to go with the bacon fat.
LOL
I bet it would be electric to ride. You just vary the pump output and the engine is always making whatever power you want it to make.
I wonder how well it responds to a turbo?
Think Kawi has the balls to sell a 250HP motorcycle that has twice the torque of any bike made?
Somehow I dont think the american rag writers are ready for somthing as cool as it would be. It would suck because the plastic fasteners were not what they would have used.
Oops, sorry, did i say that.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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posted October 28, 2003 10:45 AM
Edited By: 
. Fuel cells are being developed by dozens and dozens of companies. The company I work for makes ultrapure water systems and we have been selling lots of systems to new and well established companies that are all in need of incredably pure water to develop and manufacture fuelcells as well as run them. many of these companies are in Europe but even more are in the USA.
