Red1
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Posts: 442
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posted October 23, 2003 08:30 PM
Bearing Failures
Doug,
I know this discussion comes from another board but before we mess up our bikes with this mod what do you and Muzzy have to say about this oil mod?
Thanks,
Red1
THEJACKSHOW
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Joined: 22 Apr 2003
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Posted: 15 Oct 2003 06:21 Post subject: Oil return mod to help save bearings
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They do it for ZX-12 motored sprint cars, helps get oil to pick-up faster to keep your bearings intact. A must for bikes running quick 60fts. THEJACKSHOW01@yahoo.com
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EastBayDave
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Posted: 15 Oct 2003 08:20 Post subject: Re: Oil return mod to help save bearings
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THEJACKSHOW wrote:
They do it for ZX-12 motored sprint cars, helps get oil to pick-up faster to keep your bearings intact. A must for bikes running quick 60fts. THEJACKSHOW01@yahoo.com
link? info? pics?
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BossMan
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Posted: 15 Oct 2003 12:22 Post subject:
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Well you are still alive I see you have the mod for the oil problem.
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Your Car Is Slow
BAMF
Joined: 12 Dec 2001
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posted: 15 Oct 2003 12:45 Post subject:
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This?
http://prosites-spencercycle.homestead.com/MasterLube.html
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THEJACKSHOW
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Posted: 15 Oct 2003 14:52 Post subject:
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Still alive bro. No it is no an accumilator. The mod takes oil from the cam gallery when it is done with the cams then gets it back to the pick-up much quicker than stock return. Also the mod is very cheap. Yes still alive bro, call me.
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moonzx12
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Posted: 16 Oct 2003 21:46 Post subject: ?
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if you have parts to sell go ahead
if you have helpful tips present it
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THEJACKSHOW
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Posted: 16 Oct 2003 23:46 Post subject:
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If you want advice E-mail me so I can help you that way.
THEJACKSHOW01@yahoo.com
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vozizm
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Posted: 17 Oct 2003 08:27 Post subject:
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why not post it for all to see..
so you wont keep repeating your self via emails?...
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VincentHill
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Posted: 17 Oct 2003 10:52 Post subject:
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Voz, he has no place to Upload his pics! That is why I suggested he see Bergie! He sent me some pics and I sent them to my home computer, but could not open them to up load!
Jack, send me your pics to the pchill e-mail address and I will see if I can do it from there! 1 or 2 pics of everything! Not 5
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THEJACKSHOW
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Posted: 18 Oct 2003 06:03 Post subject:
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Thank you Mr. Hill you are a class, as soon as I borrow a camera I will send the pictures to you, probably early next week. I E-mailed Bergie but he has not contacted me back yet.
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SpencerCycle.com
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Posted: 18 Oct 2003 09:51 Post subject:
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send them to me and they will be up in minutes......it is real simple and easy for me to put them up in minutes.
doug@spencercycle.com
Thanks
Doug
SpencerCycle.com
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VincentHill
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Posted: 18 Oct 2003 15:09 Post subject:
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Jack I got your pic and was able to open it! WHen I tried to drag it to the place I Up load, it refused! Doug I hope you have better luck!
What I saw was a large hich temp oil line that was bolter to the left side of the headright at the bottom and it ran down (Actually looped down)to the top left side of the Oil panThe Hose he used looked to be about 1/2 to 3/4" inside diameter! I know this works and was trying to figure out where to locate the line. If space permits, a nice braded cable line with 1 inch ID would not only work better , but look perfect also! I know what it looped, to clear everything on the left side of the engine like the Water tank! Very nice work Jack!
I still have not gotten over the CF Tank that was identical to mine in size, but lighter!
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kawachan
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Posted: 18 Oct 2003 18:55 Post subject:
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That exact thing is on my "old" 12 motor in my mech's dwarf car. He ordered the kit online, but then built one himself for about 10 bucks for our buddy's car. Works real good on dwarfs since it is on the back of the motor....since in the cars the motors are mounted sideways anyway. Peter D Motorsports sells the kit.......
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RAC4IT
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Posted: 18 Oct 2003 19:22 Post subject:
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VH - send it to me, i will post it
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SpencerCycle.com
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Posted: 18 Oct 2003 21:12 Post subject:
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Thanks jack for sending it.....
here is the picture
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kawachan
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Posted: 19 Oct 2003 12:29 Post subject:
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That's it....
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flite leader
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Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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Posted: 19 Oct 2003 16:51 Post subject:
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on a dwarf car
it is entirely possible as a result of
the g forces of cornering that oil might accumulate
to one side of the engine
with the engine design .... canted foward
resulting in a reluctant return to the sump
it is entirely possible in an extended wheelie
that some guys can carry for miles
same is possible
no less uncovering the the pump pick up
by design & in most cases
few engines actually use more than 50% (wet sumps)
of their oil supply on the crank & in the top end
in fact several engine programs in nascar actually
restrict the amount of oil to the top end of the engine
running anywhere from 4 to 5 times whats necessary
in a tank with a dry sump
return..... & supply is not critical
(temp control being a priority)
some engines send as little as possible to the top end
& some racing harley drag engines dont supply Any.... at all
to the valve top end
it might help in the long run
if i had an engine apart & was concerned
i would open up all existing returns..... which is usually sufficient
the overwhelming concern
would be if someone runs 1/2 quart....or more low
squeezing the reserve in the sump
an excess in the top end........ resulting in
excess temps & possible pick up starvation
resulting in spun bearings ... busted rods .... bad crank
going round & around
pulling excess g's
chassis attitudes changing on both axis
that return might be a good thing in getting the oil level
in the sump to a sufficient level so that the pick up
would not be uncovered
havent seen anything like that on sustained hi speed
near red line roadracers.......or on endurance bikes
it might help on a drag bike
as a result of the 1-2-3 g launches
an extended pick up
& sufficient supply would accomplish same
any liquid has a cohesive factor ( not talking viscosity)
that altho it would be better not to uncover the pickup
it will mauntain a certain amont of fluid pickup
even tho it is not submerged
NOT to be relied upon
under some circumstances less severe
that no doubt is the case & oil supply & pressure
is Not totally disrupted.... maybe a momentary dip
still not to be relied upon
could be the result of some hi mileage bikes
being diminished by a factor
& then experiencing catastrophic failure
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Mad Mike
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Posted: 20 Oct 2003 18:18 Post subject:
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I am with fligh leader on this one, I dont really see a need for this in a bike application. whenever I have taken my cover off there is oil up there but never has it been pooling. I guess it is cheap insurance if you are worried though...
Mad Mike
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jessz1
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Posted: 20 Oct 2003 19:54 Post subject:
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Same as the mod done on the 11 isn't it? I thought about this when I had mine but never followed through with any research
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THEJACKSHOW
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Posted: 20 Oct 2003 20:03 Post subject:
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My first question to you two doubters is this, what are your 60fts? Are you hurting bearings? My 60fts progressed from starting 1.90's down to 1.36's currently. As soon as my 60ft's got into the 1.40's I started hurting my rod bearings. I have four ZX-12 motors and I hurt all four motors rod bearings. So thats four bottom ends and three hurt crank shafts, you do the math, its very expensive, and it would only take 6-9 runs to hurt itself. Since doing the mods I have been running the same motor in the bike for the last 5 months with no problem. Thats three nights at the track a week from June till the first week of September and two nights a week from September till now. The bike is daily driven and driven to and from the track with an average of 6-9 passes a night. Now flite leader I don't know if you race and I don't care what harely guys or nascar guys are doing this is a problem inherent to my racing that I have corrected. There is only so much oil moving through the system true, and thats the whole point, when the oil moves away from the pick-up under acceleration the more oil capacity you have and the faster you can get it to the pick-up the less chance you will have of running the pump dry. Running extra oil in large capacity oil pans has been a trick used by the car crowd for a long time. Anybody who has a car background knows that the car guys have gone through this back in the 60's and 70's. There pans are huge, and why? The motor only moves so much oil right, true. Does getting the oil to the pan quicker and a larger capacity keep oil at the pick-up, yes it does and that means you don't hurt parts. This mod is not to make more oil go through the motor it is to keep oil at the pick-up and the same with a oil pan. Now I am a racer, I run NOS, and I 60ft the crap out of my bike and beat her up daily and I have a cure for hurting bearings under extreem conditions. I was always told to make it strong then make it fast, so some of you may never need this mod, especially if you are just street riders, but if you are racing or in any type of high performance application it is better safe than sorry. I am not here to make money I am here to help everyone learn from my mistakes, and all the talking in the world about Harley's and what NASCAR does is not going to fix my four hurt motors or my three hurt cranks sitting in my garage but a good oiling system will. It is not pooling up there it just can be moved faster back to the pick-up where it needs to be under hard acceleration. Remember guys this is not "in theory" and I am not a computer tuner who is not at the track, I had a problem and I fixed it and don't have the problem no more. Just ask Bossman or justoyz they have witnessed the whole thing with me at the track.
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Mad Mike
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Posted: 20 Oct 2003 21:06 Post subject:
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call me what you want, but we do agree on one thing cheep insurance! but that dosent mean I think it works IMHO I dont see how it is going to flow the oil much better, except it is another oil return path you have just created, which I guess you can say flow's better, = more return area. and yes I did have problems hurting bearings, and you know what fixed it for me had my crank balanced and now I only use standard oil Kendall GT1 20w-50, No synthetic, now I do not have your mid-high 1.3's or low 1.4's( VERY FREAKING IMPRESSIVE!!!!) but I do have high 1.4's and low 1.5's and everything has been going very well. now I do not street ride hardly anymore, but I have over 800 track miles on this motor and running strong, 9.2#'s all day long motor only. and I am not trying to rain on your parade, just voicing my opinion, this still is america is it not? If someone asked me if they should do it I would say, "sure it is cheap insurance and helps flow some" but I would not tear my motor apart just to do this Mod. Now share a litte here How Freaking fast are you going pulling mid to high 1.3's????? and are you spraying in first? Congrats!!! share....
Mad Mike
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wannabe
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Posted: 20 Oct 2003 23:43 Post subject:
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mike,
check out this thread:
http://www.labusas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42197
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flite leader
BAM
Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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Location: va
Posted: 21 Oct 2003 00:27 Post subject:
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what you know.... & what you believe
are usually two different things
i hear you.........
that you believe what you think you know
if i read you post correctly
its not a cure
the same could be accomplished by
a- opening up the oil returns
b- adding more oil to the sump
c- extending the oil pickup
d- & baffling the oil pan
some or ALL of the above would accomplish the SAME !!
if there is more than 1/2 quart of oil in the valves at any given time
its toooooo frikkin much
some of those old cars as you mentioned
used to pump.... ALL their oil up into the valve covers
the small block chevy 327/350 with the hi speed oil pump would
in fact you could shift by the oil pressure gauge
it would dip at the 7500 redline..... right on cue !!
smokey yunick made a plexiglass sump & camera
to actually see & understand the phenomenon
no less i have seen something very similar on the oil cooled Zooks
that used oil in the upper engine as a coolant/lubricant
i never said it was a farce
i understand that for some 1st person anecdotal is gospel
yet many engine builders ...... world wide F1...motoGp..nascar
RESTRICT the amount of oil to the top end
that being the case..... it would be a reasonable/logical
conclusion
that it would also be a limited amount to return........
to the sump
i dont doubt you bang on your engine
i dont doubt it survives
yet there are many that make more power
turn far greater RPMs
run harder longer.... & dont use that device
(60ft aint far to race)
their 1st person anecdotal
would be tantamount to yours
much continued success
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THEJACKSHOW
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Posted: 21 Oct 2003 06:17 Post subject:
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Yo Mad Mike I was not calling you names Bro, I was mearly stating that I am not a computer tuner, not that you were. Flight leader DO YOU RACE? Yes all these mods I have used on my bike and when somebody E-mails me I explain what I have done, larger baffeled oil pan, better oil, and oil return mod. All I am offering to you guys is the simplest mod for protection because with a modded oil pan you would have to run a $900 Muzzy sidewinder. The mod I mention is peanuts, and you know what I can give you guys the info to duplicate it to. I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE MONEY, just trying to help people out. MadMike my bike has a stock bore ZX-12 with only heavy dutie valve springs, no head work and runs a two stage dry NOS system of my own design. The bike runs a sidewinder exhaust and is 68 inches. I run a 190 H2 tire and the bike is daily driven, about 40-60 miles a day. The bike has run a best of 8.69 @ 160mph. I hit the NOS in first gear, as a matter of fact before my back wheel hits the starting line the NOS is on. I need to get into the NOS aggressively because of the stock motor not being able to pull the wheelbase with my 16-46 gearing. Also I weigh 185lbs without my leathers on. If you have had a bad oil problem contact www.peterDmotorsports.com and pick up his 5 quart oil pan and have him explain the oil mod, as he is the one who has developed it and you will never hurt another bearing by oil starvation. Like I said though you will have to run a sidewinder, but the pan and sidewinder combined lets you lower the bike more also. Once again MadMike I was not calling you names, you are a racer and I love all racers. If you want more details on my set-up on my bike feel free to E-mail me at THEJACKSHOW01@yahoo.com.
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BROOKLYNNYZX12
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Posted: 21 Oct 2003 17:39 Post subject: just my .02 cents
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Guys,from my own experience...having built,raced,broken a few motors..car motors I can only talk about what I have experienced myself or what my friends have experienced.I have never heard of any car engine have the oil galleries blocked off...PERIOD.The top of the motor would not last long w/o an oil supply.The cam and lifters will survive from the splash....but rocker arms,pushrods..etc aren't gonna live.It is customary to restrict the oil passages to the top of the motor...there by keeping more oil around the crankshaft and rod bearings...for longevity.The SBC should never have a high volume pump installed on a motor with a stock or 6 qt. pan,anyone who knows will tell you that a high volume pump suck the pan dry.The correct mod for a stock or 6 qt pan is to use a Z-28 spring in the oil pump..or just buy a high pressure pump..not high volume.I agree with with Jackshow...how can you guys not?He has 4 motors that have grenaded from what he believes is an oil starvation problem..he applies a cheap fix...Voila ..the motors now survive.It seems the ZX-12 may have a similar oiling problem to the ZX-11...Jackshow has found a cheap and easy mod that anyone semi-handy can do yourself.It looks much easier than enlarging oil passages or removing a pan and installing baffles in it.I would much rather buy that kit,take Jackshows advice rather than poke holes in his theory and have my motor blow up.These bikes definitely don't need to be drag raced to move oil around in the pan.Crank the throttle wide open for 3 or 4 gears and tell me where you think the oil is hanging out...Thanks for the tip Jackshow!
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swft
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Posted: 21 Oct 2003 23:04 Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After grenading a 12 motor I doubled the diameter of the oil return passages from the top of the head down to the crankcase. No more probs. My bike doesn't do quarter miles, but it does do endurance races and regularly sees 190+ mph on the straights.
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flite leader
BAM
Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 162
Location: va
Posted: 22 Oct 2003 01:19 Post subject:
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at no place or time did i say anything about oil
supplies being blocked off...
prove it......CUT & PASTE !!!
what i said was on many hi perf engines
oil supplies to the top end are restricted !!!
(many nascar engines builders do)
run no more to the top end than necessary
with roller tappets.... even less than with hydaulics
FAR LESS
on some harley race engines.... no supply at all
not blocked off..... NONE !!!
fact is after the oil lubes the rocker & the cam
it is of no further use
it doesnt take much to do so
far less than 1/2 quart in a zx12 engine
less than a quart in a v8
maybe something only a racer would know..............
& having 4 broken motors is only proof that
he might have been burping the pump
or sprayin toooo hard
or both
getting me into his camp.... because he paid his dues
simply wasnt necessary
mentioned b4....
open all oil returns ..... as least as good as your mod...same results
extend pump pick up
add oil to sump .... what an extra 2-3 dollars LOL !!
windage tray or crank wiper
none any more expensive ..................all effective !!!!
things guys that raced the old roller bearing crank
Z's did/knew
things only a racer might know..........Right ??
if he has as much as a 1/2 quart of oil upstairs
(or for that matter.... how ever much there is)
adding that to the sump would have given
SAME RESULTS !!!!!! DUH !!!!!
he CANT return any more than is available.....RIGHT ???
how much he got up there..... 2-3 quarts ????
HARDLY
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Koz
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Location: Newark
Posted: 22 Oct 2003 05:48 Post subject:
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Guys, This seams to be a NO-BRAINER. A cheap way to get oil back to the pump. Someone has real world experience with a cheap fix for bearing failure caused by VERY hard 60s.
Thanks for sharing!
Koz
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RAC4IT
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Posted: 22 Oct 2003 06:09 Post subject:
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I am going to test this product on my next (ongoing) build.
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THEJACKSHOW
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Posted: 22 Oct 2003 16:27 Post subject:
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Thank you Koz for the appreciation. Bergie let me know how it goes, also wondering if you are running the sidewinder yet?
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Y2KZX12R
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Posted: 23 Oct 2003 17:18 Post subject:
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Restricting the oil to the top end of a needle roller fulcrum that requires almost zero oil for cooling, and less than that for lube, is standard practice on most classes of pushrod racing.
But the cam bearings that the cam spins in are not restricted.
The roller tips require the same oil supply as the fulcrum, not much.
But the cam surfaces need much more cooling. That means more oil.
On a SBC for instance the rods throw oil up on the cam and the oil windage cools the cam.
If you restrict the amount of oil to the head on an over head cam engine you are also reducing the cooling capacity because thats how the cams are cooled because the crank cant sling oil on the cams. Maybe the cams can run cool on less oil on the zx12r? I dunno.
I dont think I'd do it.
But another return path in a suspect gathering area wont hurt.
So I take it that some of you guys feal that too much oil hangs around up top on the ZX12 engine?
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RAC4IT
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Posted: 23 Oct 2003 18:10 Post subject:
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I'll be adding a sidewinder and coby adams oilpan during this rebuild.
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THEJACKSHOW
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Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 68
Posted: 23 Oct 2003 20:14 Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the Coby pan, sidewinder and the oil mod you are not going to hurt no bottom ends. And flite leader I do spray hard, damn hard straight off of the starting line, harder than when I hurt my motors and you know what, everything is fine. I don't know who you are, do you race NASCAR? Because you sound like a guy who reads a lot and never actually races or trys things out, then you are over here trying to drop knowledge. Please what's your best quarter mile????, Lap time????, timed top speed???? No times? If not please post somewhere else when I am trying to share help with fellow racers. There are many things that can help oiling problems, this one is tried and true, are the others, if somebody tried it and it worked then yes but all this "in theory" crap is starting to get on my nerves. Please tell me that you are a NASCAR mechanic, or a Top Fuel mechanic, or an accomplished racer, or a streetbike champion or something. JOHN FORCE IS THAT WHO YOU ARE FLITE LEADER??? Can I have an autograph?? PLEASE!!!
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THEJACKSHOW
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Posted: 23 Oct 2003 20:16 Post subject: Re: just my .02 cents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BROOKLYNNYZX12 wrote:
Guys,from my own experience...having built,raced,broken a few motors..car motors I can only talk about what I have experienced myself or what my friends have experienced.I have never heard of any car engine have the oil galleries blocked off...PERIOD.The top of the motor would not last long w/o an oil supply.The cam and lifters will survive from the splash....but rocker arms,pushrods..etc aren't gonna live.It is customary to restrict the oil passages to the top of the motor...there by keeping more oil around the crankshaft and rod bearings...for longevity.The SBC should never have a high volume pump installed on a motor with a stock or 6 qt. pan,anyone who knows will tell you that a high volume pump suck the pan dry.The correct mod for a stock or 6 qt pan is to use a Z-28 spring in the oil pump..or just buy a high pressure pump..not high volume.I agree with with Jackshow...how can you guys not?He has 4 motors that have grenaded from what he believes is an oil starvation problem..he applies a cheap fix...Voila ..the motors now survive.It seems the ZX-12 may have a similar oiling problem to the ZX-11...Jackshow has found a cheap and easy mod that anyone semi-handy can do yourself.It looks much easier than enlarging oil passages or removing a pan and installing baffles in it.I would much rather buy that kit,take Jackshows advice rather than poke holes in his theory and have my motor blow up.These bikes definitely don't need to be drag raced to move oil around in the pan.Crank the throttle wide open for 3 or 4 gears and tell me where you think the oil is hanging out...Thanks for the tip Jackshow!
Thanks for the support Bro. Real recognize the real.
  
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted October 26, 2003 07:11 AM
wow
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silver01bullit
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on here too much
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posted October 26, 2003 01:56 PM
how long did it take you to re-type all that? LOL
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zx12richard
Pro
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posted October 26, 2003 01:58 PM
Its called copy and paste...LOL
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted October 26, 2003 03:54 PM
Why didnt you just link the post here like this?????...
http://www.labusas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42018
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necro
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posted October 26, 2003 07:53 PM
Wow, do you expect him to read all that? He'll probably charge you just for reading it... 
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