posted October 08, 2003 02:27 PM
muzzy lockup? Does anyone own one of these kits? If so, how did you get it to work without breaking your release arm or wearing out the push rod?
I bought one, but it's not working. I have checked the clutch pack thickness, the tension on the arm, the free play on the push rod.
posted October 09, 2003 06:46 AM
there are only two solutions I know of- 1 do not pull in the clutch above 7000 rpm. if you grab the clutch at high rpm or try to slip it higher than 6k~7k = snap.
2. remove it
posted October 09, 2003 07:19 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 9 Oct 2003 08:22
Ding Dong
Bergie is correct, but let me add that there is no particular engine rpm limit, and it depends on the amount of lockup weight being used. Forgive me if I'm going too far into basics here, but remember the speed of the clutch hub is proportional to the WHEEL SPEED, not the engine speed. The pull rod and the stock actuator shaft are designed for a specific pull load and that design is well within the limits of a stock pull rod design. The pull rod we use is superior to the stock one in its' material/heat treat etc., but it has to be essentially the same design to work with the stock actuator shaft. When you have a high wheel speed (MPH) either in higher gears or in an over zealous burnout you are actuating the "lockup" feature of the clutch by spinning up the weight arms so they push down on the clutch hat and against the pull of the cable. If you pull the clutch in under these conditions you are overstressing the shaft and rod. The design of the stock "hookup" between these two parts just can't take that for long. You actually end up deflecting the pull rod and making it either gall on the rotating the surface inside the output shaft or start spinning with the clutch in which case it will wear out the actuator shaft (remember the pull rod is supposed to remain stationary, pulling against the needle bearing, with the clutch spinning around it). This is precisely why we do not recommend this clutch for anything other than race use. It is very hard to resist pulling in the clutch at high speed occasionally on the street.
Another "failure mode" is when a rider "hot laps" the clutch overheating it and causing the plates to swell. This puts more free play into the cable/lever and if it is not adjusted out carefully as it increases, this allows the notch in the actuator shaft to move off of the pull rod which, the next time the clutch is pulled, bends or breaks the pull rod. If it IS adjusted out carefully it is essential to relieve the ensuing cable tension as the clutch cools.
As an aside, we are quite convinced, through our own use of this setup that most people use too much weight on the lockup, attempting to eliminate a slippage that they believe is occuring, but in actuality is not. Except in extreme cases a HEALTHY stock clutch won't slip at high speed and will only slip at launch if the RIDER slips it with his left hand. The purpose of a lock up is to allow you to set up your clutch (with lighter springs) so that it has a lighter, controllable pull, and WILL slip at launch if you want, but lock up as the wheel speed grows.
Doug
posted October 09, 2003 07:27 AM
Edited By: wannabe on 9 Oct 2003 08:30
So, you're saying that with the muzzy lockup if you're running down the track, and you hear a noise coming from your bike, you have to think twice about pulling the clutch in because most likely *snap*??? Man, that sounds like a recipe for disaster.
This whole year, all the guys at the track have tried to stick it in my head that if something feels wrong (or if you hear a wierd noise, etc...) during a pass, get into the habit of pulling the clutch in. Any, hesitation could mean some expensive repairs to you and your bike. A split second indecision because you don't want to snap your clutch puller.....oooh...
I've only been racing a year, but I've already seen one guy bail because he hesitated to pull his clutch in on the top end when he heard a noise. The engine seized and locked up the rear wheel and sent him flying at 150+ mph. In this case, he hesitated because he was so close to the finish. He decided to wait until after he crossed the line....wrong choice.
I don't mean to be on my soapbox here, but the one thing I've already learned this year is that if there is a chance that something can come around to bite you, it most likely will.
posted October 09, 2003 07:47 AM
Of course I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that REPEATED mis-use of the clutch will damage it. Of course it could break that particular time but I wouldn't not be safe because of the possiblity.
Doug
posted October 09, 2003 08:26 AM
Also let me point out the problem is not associated only with the Muzzys lockup because I've also seen the exact same issue using the MTC on a 12R. In fact I loaned Ryan a spare puller during testing a couple months ago at MIR when he was trying to dial in a lockup of "another brand".
It's all avoidable once you learn how to "use" them correctly. Inevitably one will break so just keep an extra rod on hand for when you need it most, easy fix 5 minutes or less.
There are many guys out there using lockups with no problems. Others especially those that like to wind-out the clutch off the line are having problems. That was my problem last year. I ended up removing it and doing without but since then I've figured out how to make it last a reasonable period of time.
For me the personal choice is only use a lockup for top speed events. Drag racing I don't need it , not fast enough yet
posted October 09, 2003 12:10 PM
I haven't taken it to the track yet, I am mearly trying to ride the bike without wearing out the release arm or damaning the pull rod.
quote:Of course I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that REPEATED mis-use of the clutch will damage it. Of course it could break that particular time but I wouldn't not be safe because of the possiblity.
Doug
I had the lock-up clutch and Muzzy blames the riders for their design flaws. MTC corrected the problem so should you. I personally like my overzelous burnouts and with my MTC they are no problem. I also run my bike on the street everyday with the MTC, no problem. The reason the muzzy does not work is because with the added distance of the spacer plate the puller pulls the acctuator at an angle and not strait causing failure. I wish muzzy would own up to its shortcomings instead of calling us stupid and blowing hot air up our asses.
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THEY NEVER ASK HOW JUST WHO!
posted October 16, 2003 08:14 AM
I'm sure Doug will respond directly to you. But I must have missed the part where they are calling you "stupid and blowing hot air up our asses". I just can't find that here.....
posted October 16, 2003 06:40 PM
I have dealt with them on a personal level trying to return the lock-up because it does not work.I almost lost a race because of their unit. They kept saying they couldent return it because I was either "riding wrong" or " I installed it wrong" if you haved owned both lock-ups and you understand their dynamics and why they work or don't work you could understand. Tony Lang had the same problem with their lock-up, what did they do? They took back all the lock-ups they sold, corrected the problem and sent them back, he did not try to defend a product that they know was defective by saying the consumer is wrong. If the lock-up from muzzy works so well then why do they run a MTC unit on their shootout effort????? Now when someone tries to make excuses for a product that is known not to work, and that excuse is that the consumer is to blame, thats blowing hot air up my ass and calling me stupid.
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THEY NEVER ASK HOW JUST WHO!
posted October 16, 2003 08:20 PM
I'm not SuperNut, I have had a bad experience with a product and want it corrected. I am not a rich man and I am stuck with a lock-up that does not work. There are a lot of people out there who don't know any better and when they see a respected name like Doug's they should be fed the right info. I don't know why you guys are trying to jump on me, do you have the lock-up, have you raced with it, do you race, have you almost lost a race because of a bad part. I feel strongly about the subject and want to save people the mistake I made. If you want a lock-up buy a MTC because they care about the customer, and I don't think muzzy cares as much as they do. Tony Lang told me the story of why he does not race anymore. He was the defending top fuel champ when he retired, but what happened was Tony was trying to get his bike ready for the next round of racing when a customer came over and asked him for advice on a lock-up. Tony told him he was busy getting the bike ready and the customer went on his own way. That night he said he went home and thought about what had happened and he felt that he was telling his customer that his own needs were more important than his customers. He never raced again from that day forward. Now that is amazing and thats the kind of caring that we as consumers should get from companys dealing with a sport and culture that we love so much. A lot of us work hard to have the money to do the things we do and we have to make every modification count, I just wish some of these companys would just fess up to their mistakes.
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THEY NEVER ASK HOW JUST WHO!
posted October 17, 2003 03:26 AM
I think Doug/Muzzys NEEDS to respond. I also think that THEJACKSHOW has the right to answers, I'd be pissed also! If the MTC works the way it is mentioned above, I would think, there is a design problem. It should not take pissed off customer/s to make good for it. If the product is defective, either fix it, or give a refund. Shit like this can discourage MANY people from being a (potential) customer, regardless of how well their other products work! If you do not stand behind all your products (especially when there are problems), you better get used to losing customers.
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted October 17, 2003 05:54 AM
Things I have tried and decided didn't work for me:
Muzzy's lockup clutch - never broke any parts, just didn't fit my needs.
Muzzys' EMS. - great for the track, but wouldn't ever recommend it for the street, at least on a long-term day to day basis.
Muzzy's Air Shifter - same as the lockup.
Other than that, every other product I've bought I've been completely satisfied with.
posted October 17, 2003 07:13 AM
I feel i should give my 2 cents.
I bought a Muzzy lockup and now run a MTC.
I bought a Muzzy airshifter and now run a different airshifter that shifts.
I bought a Muzzy pipe and now run a Hindle step.
I do not want to bad mouth Muzzys because they do also make products that work for our bike and were the first to design these products for us but i feel Muzzys should of fixed the design of the lockup a long time ago and cannot believe people are still buying these.
posted October 17, 2003 01:32 PM
I totally agree with cowboy, koz, and swft. I also have had the air shifter that did not work, so did a couple of other racers here in Hawaii and it has costed them at least three races that I personally know of. When bad parts make you lose races thats serious!!! It is definetly a design flaw on the lock-up and it is a visable one also a hard piece of fabrication that fixes the flaw. I just don't say what it is because Tony Lang asked me not to, but if any of you are stuck with the unit I know how to fix it, hit me up and I will tell you what to do because you know muzzy aint taking it back.
____________
THEY NEVER ASK HOW JUST WHO!
posted October 17, 2003 03:00 PM
Tony's patented multi stage lock-up is an excellent product, MTC is a valued supplier to Muzzys and we respect Tony's accomplishments enormously. We use his clutch on our Pro Stock bike because it is the appropriate part for that job. Clutch tuning is an essential part of making a Pro Stock bike work and the multi-stage is what it takes. The main difference between the MTC and the Muzzy (beyond the multi stage, which is not relevant to this conversation) is a support bushing that Tony puts into the cover. This requires sending the clutch cover in for the addition of the bushing and we can do that as well. We choose not to because that is a feature that we feel more or less just further "idiot proofs" the clutch. You can still break rods in an MTC if you mis-use it just like you can if you mis-use ours. We feel that most users prefer not to have to send in the clutch cover for this mod and pay the extra expense involved in that if they just use the clutch properly it has a low failure rate.
Other applications beyond our Pro Stock bike such as our Pro Mod, Rickey's shootout bike, Ryan Schnitz's 60 inch bike, and Rickey's 60 incher all use our lock-up without problem. As a matter of fact, hundreds of people use it without problems. I don't think there is any product we've offered that has had more attention than this lock up. The failures have had an interesting pattern. Users with one failure seem to have repeated failures, most users have none. I will not go over all the cautions and proper use recommendations again. You've all read them here, but a few of the standouts are failure to maintain correct free play when "hot lapping" (allowing the actuator to fall off the pull rod), the use of static spring with too high a pressure (which defeats the whole purpose of the part), too much centrifugal weight (very little beyond the arms alone is ever required), and number one is pulling in the clutch at too high a wheel speed in combination with too much weight. The clutch, at the price for which it is offered, when used properly, is a quality part and does the job as intended. Can it be improved? Sure, and we'll work on that just like we try to do with all our products. We take complaints very seriously, and contrary to Jackshow's impression, I don't think any company in the industry maintains a more personal involvement with their customer than we do.
Doug
posted October 18, 2003 11:56 AM
If that's the case, I stand corrected. I haven't seen the bike in quite some time. When we were running it, we used our part without a problem. Coby is certainly free to choose whatever parts he wants, for whatever reasons he wants.
Doug
posted October 18, 2003 01:48 PM
Jack, we are all friends here and even I have had to moderate what I say and finally have cooled down enought to realize that no matter "How" I say something it is what I say that is heard. (Except Frank Adams ) ALl of the aftermarket people look at this board and even respond from time to time when they feel sonething is not correct! Brock Davidson responded because someone told him that we (Actually told him that "I") was/were trashing his pipe. He come on and we all learned something more about Step tube Hindle Pipes! When I mentioned a small problem with sonething I received from Muzzys, Rob himself looked into it and responded and no one I know has had this problem since. The deal is, no one here is God so everyone knows a little but no one know everything. All new products take a lot of learning and Break and Break in process. If Muzzys has a fault, they bend to the pressures of trying to put something we all want and need at the lowest possible price as soon as possible! There is a pirce to pay for being first! Everyone gets their hands on what you made and then watches to see what the problems are and then corrects the problems and they get the credit and Muzzys gets the black eye!
Personally I remember when a Ti Pipe was close to $3,000, Now they are close to $1,000 because of Muzzys. All I am saying is say everything you have to say totally, but ease up just a little on the feelings part because even as much as I dislike Frank Adams, Most of what he made, I liked!
Just remember, history is not always kind to the "First" to do something and with Kawasaki, the Muz man is usually first! ____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted October 18, 2003 04:21 PM
Ryan also was using an MTC last time I saw him at MIR. And just for reference, he borrowed a spare puller arm from me because his broke during testing, yes it was an MTC version on his 60" bike. Shit happens no matter what brand of lockup.
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posted October 08, 2003 02:27 PM
Edited By: 
posted October 18, 2003 06:19 PM
