Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted September 12, 2003 04:07 AM
Life just isn't fair.....
If any of you are NASCAR fans you may heard over the past couple years about Dale Jarrett's crew chief and his crew chief's wife. She had a bad heart and was very close to dying waiting for a heart transplant. They are both young, under 30. She spend endless time in the hospital and was literally on death's bed when a match was finally found for a transplant. Well, she had the transplant and her body accepted the new heart and things were going great. It was a great story of perserverence and strength. After the transplant they were able to adopt a little boy cause it is too risky for her to risk childbirth. They were very happy. Well, Wednesday night his wife and his sister in law and half sister were coming home from a concert in a limosine and they were stopped in traffic at a construction zone when a drunk motherfucker in a truck plowed into the back of the limo. The limo caught on fire and all three woman burned to death. His wife and both his sisters dead. Man it just tears me up thinking about it, after all these two went through and now this. I guess the drunk is in jail and has a $900,000 bail. I hope thye crucify that fucker.
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Hells Dark Lord
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living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted September 12, 2003 04:09 AM
dude no words can say how bad that sucks....I will keep him and his family and friends in my thoughts and prayers.....
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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Ninjaman12R
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Posts: 4767
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posted September 12, 2003 05:19 AM
 Edited By: Ninjaman12R on 12 Sep 2003 06:25
Horrible....
That is tragic, such an awful way to go. 
I know I may catch some shit about this, but it's bullshit like this that makes me question a lot of things I've been taught in my life. Why, if there was a god, in "heaven", would he allow such a thing to happen. I'm sure that when this woman was on her death bed needing a new heart many prayers were said on her behalf. Just as I'm sure that when she received her new heart and all was well again, she and all around her were giving "God" credit for this miracle. All that, to end up dying in what has to be one of the worse ways to go, fire. You tell me why, if he (god) even exist, would do such a thing. Please don't humor me with that "God works in mysterious ways" bullshit either.
I'm about to arrive at the fact that we , and our immediate surroundings, company, etc., are what determines our destiny. Not someone that is floating up in the clouds that supposedly "loves" all of us. But don't fuck up or he will sentence you to eternal damnation and you will burn in hell forever. But don't forget he "Loves" you. We are all his children.
I don't know about you guys, but no matter how bad my son fucks up in his life I'd never sentence him to like ahh...... "Burn for eternity". I am a simple man of simple means. I'm far from stupid, fairly educated, but no genius by any stretch. I'm open minded and have really asked a lot of questions to religious people in recent times. 9-11 was what awoke some feelings that I had kept hidden for a long time. To this day nobody has given me anything to make me able to walk into a church and undeniably get with the program with no doubts that I'm doing the right thing. These people will fucking look at you as if they want to kill you when you question gods' existance. But they are christians right??? Looks like they'd want to use a different approach eh? Never ask this question unless you are ready for some MAJOR drama - "Do you think that your belief in god is a product of religion being force-fed to you from the time you were a yound child"? That really gets them fired up.
I know I will catch heat for this. I have mixed emotions about posting it but all who know me can attest to my being a "straight forward" person. I don't mean to offend any christians at all. I'll let the record state that I believe the "Concept" of christianity is a good one. It is based on love, and for the most part, being a good honest person. I think that is a good thing. But to actually think you are going to force everyone in the world to be a good honest person with the threat of "Hey if you don't behave, you'll roast like a pig on the 4th o' July FOREVER" is hard for me to support.
I was raised up in church, and was baptized when I was 11 years old. I come from a good solid family and can say that I am proud of all the people who had a hand in on raising me. I could throw a million and one reasons out there as to why I question religion. But I won't, I've said enough already. Don't flame me too hard guys, just speakin' my mind.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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ballisticzx12r
Zone Head
& Deals Gap Board Member
Posts: 940
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posted September 12, 2003 05:35 AM
None of us have the answers we are not suppose to...
You must find strength from anything that hurts you, is this a good answer for him loosing his family or a way to make me feel any better about pulling the plug on my father last year or watch my mother fall apart after battling cancer for 6 years...
The answer if FUCKING YES, YOUR FUCKING RIGHT... Looking to that past is the same as not looking through the corner, shit happens way to fast and you wind up in the kitty litter. You are, to learn from it (the past), but not dewl in it. You cannot change it so understand it (which doesn't me you ever will) and move on.
As far as where we are all going after this life on earth ends, who the fuck cares as long as theres some great twisties and I get to see my mother again.
BTW that's the great thing about being a JEW, I got the free pass up stairs... Just don't care to use it anytime soon.
Barto
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted September 12, 2003 05:41 AM
So we live in some place in the universe, a universe that has no end. Some of the stars I see at night may not even exist as I gaze on them because they burnt out half a million years ago but there light is still getting here. Two particles of matter can interact in such a way that they cease to exist but leave behind a photon. My point? There is so much in life that I can't fathom. So much of it I have to believe just on faith. We all have to decide what to believe, through faith or apparent evidence.
 
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted September 12, 2003 05:46 AM
Oh yeah....
Bart,
Not only did I know you would chime in, I had a good idea of what the "Tempo" of your reply would be like.  You stupid bastard, you make me laugh......and THAT'S a good thing. 
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted September 12, 2003 05:56 AM
Edited By: Otis on 12 Sep 2003 06:59
Profound thoughts to be sure. My veiws have changed somewhat over the years. My parent are not whacko Christians but they go and have gone to chruch every Sunday for ever. I was raised going to church, I went to a private Catholic gradeschool so I went to church twice a week from 1st-8th grade (alter boy for 4 of those years), Wednesday at School and Sunday with the family, I went to a private Catholic High School, too so I went twice a week for four more years. I certainly believe in God or at least some form of higher being but while it may be the biggest illusion of my life, it can be an illusion that gets me through tough times. I am a selfish Catholic now. I only go to church when I am having life troubles or on Holidays but I am still quite pissed at God for personal reasons so we most certainly have a love hate relationship. One thing I can say without a second thought is when I am down, I mean truly down and I decide to go to church, it never and I mean never fails that I feel better when I leave. That is enough for me to know that HE means something to me at some level.
An important thing to remember here is God and the church means different things to different people and I respect everyone's view of it as there is no right or wrong in the matter of faith. The other thing is I rarely, if ever discuss my religious beliefs with others. This post is most unusual for me.
Now as far as what happened to Bart's father and mother, and what happened to these women in the fiery car wreck? IT FUCKING SUCKS anyway you look at it and I like Rick would never buy into God works in mysterious ways. I would never say that to Bart, I just told him he can count on me if he ever needs me, ever.
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It's a free country brother
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted September 12, 2003 06:05 AM
Chris,
Good reply and points well taken. I know where you are coming from. I too believe in a higher being, someone, or something had to get the ball rolling so to speak.
In a fucked up twist I think going to church kinda makes everyone feel better. Ironic eh??? But I think it stems from several different things and I won't even attempt at trying to convey my thoughts on this. I'm too lazy to type that much.
I won't knock anyone who is a devoted christian. I may be one someday if I ever find what it takes to be convinced that it is the right thing to do. Like I said I believe that there are good things that come from it. But there are bad things as well. Bottom line in my book is this. Live right, treat your fellow man with love and respect, don't steal from him, lie to him, fuck his ol' lady, or any other lowdown bullshit and you should be ok. Right?? If there is a god, and he sends me to hell tomorrow even after I tried to do the best I could,...then I guess I deserve it. But he loves me????
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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GOZR
Zone Head
GOZR
Posts: 716
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posted September 12, 2003 07:18 AM
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-G
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted September 12, 2003 09:55 AM
reading about tragedies like that sure puts things in perspective. all of a sudden many of our huge worries & stress inducing problems just seem insignificant. hopefully this is high profile enough that an investigation will find out why the limo caught fire (sholdnt do so) and make sure other limos dont do that. i'm sre it would be a problem with the way they are designed. course, it would be better yet if they concentrated on making the fuel less flamable under those conditions (like researchers did with jet fuel once) but what's the chance of that happening? very sad that we dont learn as much from these situation as we could, usually for financial reasons.
and rick, i hear ya. sure makes ya wonder. i also cant believe in a "supervising being" because of things like this. BUT.. if u can? then more power to you and i envy you. would make life mch easier & less frightening if u can have faith. sure wish i could.
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted September 12, 2003 10:59 AM
Edited By: Ninjaman12R on 12 Sep 2003 12:02
Yeah freek, it would make things easier for sure. My post above are also like Chris' reply, very out of the ordinary. I usually try to stay away from political discussions, and religious debates.
I have a close personal friend who is very knowledgeable when it comes to the bible and can quote scripture after scripture, verbatim. He and I have had countless discussions about various forms of religion. Both hailing from the "Bible Belt" our views are definitely not the norm. In our attempts to have intelligent conversations with people that are practicing christians we have been more or less shunned. Ironic for people that are supposed to love one another, and are taught that we are all "brothers & sisters".
He had a discussion with a co-worker recently. The fellow he talked with is a good guy, intelligent, family oriented, and VERY religious. He was appauled at what my friend was saying. He said that "The devil is really working on you" to my friend. My friend, who post here as "Richard Simmons" is my best friend of 20 years. I know this guy as well as you can know a person. He is a stand up guy, would give you the shirt off his back, and his last dollar if you needed it. Loves his family, faithful to his wife, and is always there for anyone who needs him. There is nothing "Devilish" about him. He just has a lot of questions that remain unanswered. When we speak to people that have faith in god and their religion they don't seem to realize that we are looking for answers. We may never find the answers that we are looking for.
We think that a lot of what is practiced today was set in place long ago by people in high places as a means of controlling the masses to their benefit. But there are many tangents to our views, and even we don't agree with each other on some of the issues. We do however respect each others' views, and agree to disagree on some aspects.
Also, as food for thought, my friend and his co-worker's discussion revolved around Adolf Hitler and the possibility that he indeed could be in "Heaven".
Once again I don't mean to offend anyone here, just speaking my mind and opening the door for anyone who may make me see things in a different light. In my lifetime I have witnessed far too many bad things happen to good, honest, loving, hard working people that deserved better IMHO. People that DID devote their life to christ, and played by the rules. All the while fucking thugs are allowed to rape kids, rob the elderly, and terrorize our streets. Religious people will tell you "They will be held accountable on judgement day". They will be cast into a lake of fire for all eternity. Well what about the people's lives they ruined throughout their life. Why were they subjected to hell on earth? Why are little kids beaten to death by their own parents, or locked up in closets like monkeys in a cage at the zoo? Why if there is a god, doesn't he stop these horrible acts?
If you pray, and pray, and pray, for god to help you, or a loved one and your prayers are not answered religious people say "Well it was gods' will". I thought everything was gods' will. Does this mean that prayer is moot point?
Finally, I know some people of faith will say "That man is really confused". You damned right I am, VERY confused. But I would love to hear every christian I speak with say that instead of buck passing it off on the "Devil". You believers can pray for me, and I hope whatever that is needed to come from those prayers does indeed happen. I don't see any harm in that. When people fall on hard times and asked me to pray for them I do, even though I'm not sure it's gonna do any good, it can't hurt. If all that happens is me giving a few moments of my time to reflect on that individuals pain, and or suffering so be it. I do it out of respect for that person, or persons.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted September 12, 2003 05:53 PM
Edited By: Megabyte on 12 Sep 2003 18:54
I used to have a problem with the same issues and questions you raised. Hope this helps: We live in a sinful world and bad things do happen to good people. Sometimes God intervenes. There are worse things then the death of our mortal bodies. If the wages of sin is to be eternally roasted and toasted then Jesus didn't pay the penalty because He's seated in heaven, not in the flames of Hell. So, I don't believe God will torture sinners for eternity. Rom 6:23 says "The wages of sin is death." That's it, not eternal torture, eternal roasting and toasting, but death. And, by the way Jesus took yours and my place there too. I've learned that this world isn't fair, but I believe Heaven will make up for it. All we need to do is believe the promise of John 3:16 "For God so loved Ninjaman, that He gave His only Son, so that if Ninjaman would just believe in God, and His love for Him, Nimjaman would not perish, but have everlasting life." I'll probably catch a rash of grief for this post too... Hang in there bud!
quote:
That is tragic, such an awful way to go.
I know I may catch some shit about this, but it's bullshit like this that makes me question a lot of things I've been taught in my life. Why, if there was a god, in "heaven", would he allow such a thing to happen. I'm sure that when this woman was on her death bed needing a new heart many prayers were said on her behalf. Just as I'm sure that when she received her new heart and all was well again, she and all around her were giving "God" credit for this miracle. All that, to end up dying in what has to be one of the worse ways to go, fire. You tell me why, if he (god) even exist, would do such a thing. Please don't humor me with that "God works in mysterious ways" bullshit either.
I'm about to arrive at the fact that we , and our immediate surroundings, company, etc., are what determines our destiny. Not someone that is floating up in the clouds that supposedly "loves" all of us. But don't fuck up or he will sentence you to eternal damnation and you will burn in hell forever. But don't forget he "Loves" you. We are all his children.
I don't know about you guys, but no matter how bad my son fucks up in his life I'd never sentence him to like ahh...... "Burn for eternity". I am a simple man of simple means. I'm far from stupid, fairly educated, but no genius by any stretch. I'm open minded and have really asked a lot of questions to religious people in recent times. 9-11 was what awoke some feelings that I had kept hidden for a long time. To this day nobody has given me anything to make me able to walk into a church and undeniably get with the program with no doubts that I'm doing the right thing. These people will fucking look at you as if they want to kill you when you question gods' existance. But they are christians right??? Looks like they'd want to use a different approach eh? Never ask this question unless you are ready for some MAJOR drama - "Do you think that your belief in god is a product of religion being force-fed to you from the time you were a yound child"? That really gets them fired up.
I know I will catch heat for this. I have mixed emotions about posting it but all who know me can attest to my being a "straight forward" person. I don't mean to offend any christians at all. I'll let the record state that I believe the "Concept" of christianity is a good one. It is based on love, and for the most part, being a good honest person. I think that is a good thing. But to actually think you are going to force everyone in the world to be a good honest person with the threat of "Hey if you don't behave, you'll roast like a pig on the 4th o' July FOREVER" is hard for me to support.
I was raised up in church, and was baptized when I was 11 years old. I come from a good solid family and can say that I am proud of all the people who had a hand in on raising me. I could throw a million and one reasons out there as to why I question religion. But I won't, I've said enough already. Don't flame me too hard guys, just speakin' my mind.
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We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted September 12, 2003 07:59 PM
Thanks..........
Thanks Mega, I can see that your reply came from the bottom of your heart. I truly appreciate your sincerity, the christian faith need more people like you on their side. But the sad fact remains, most scriptures that are spoken to me come across as a piece of an elaborate fairy tale. I know that may seem harsh, but I can't help the way I feel. I am still searching, and hoping that something will help me see the light, and tell me which way I need to go. I won't ramble on as it is late, but thanks again.
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
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posted September 13, 2003 08:01 PM
That's one of the worst ways to go too.
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3829
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted September 14, 2003 04:18 AM
I'm not much on discussing religion & politics but don't have a problem saying my two cents worth on drunk drivers.
It's WRONG and there's NO reason for it to happen.
Countless times, lives have been devastated when it was all preventable. I have no problem with people drinking or getting drunk, it's when they get behind the wheel that frost me.
It's dangerous enough out here driving or riding without having to worry about some moron who thinks he/she can handle a car while they cross the center line or plow into the back of a vehicle.
I truly hate to read what Otis wrote about, it should have never ended that way for this family.
Dan
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted September 14, 2003 06:10 AM
i'm a simple man myself...on to the God question
I'm about to arrive at the fact that we , and our immediate surroundings, company, etc., are what determines our destiny. Not someone that is floating up in the clouds that supposedly "loves" all of us. But don't fuck up or he will sentence you to eternal damnation and you will burn in hell forever. But don't forget he "Loves" you. We are all his children.
our destiny here on earth is indeed determined by ours and other actions. that IS why crap like this happens. our future is OURS to make, that is WHY there is so much crap inthe world. God doesn't intervene and force us to do His will. otherwise people would be mindless automatons. He gives us freedom to choose, and then honours that choice.
as far as eternal damnation and burning in Hell forever and all that
i'm not so sure that the dante version of Hell is truly what Hell is. biblically the eternal death is more like eternal seperation from God. He cannot be a just/perfect and have screwups like me around. it just doesn't work.
that brings to the 'what is Hell' question.
there are 2 (or more..who knows) schools of thought on that. one is an absolute literal no thought interpretation. somewhere exists a lake,a nd it is on fire and your eternal immortal soul will be tossed in,and let the barbeque commence. (marshmallows anyone?) but this same school of thought says MANY other things that don't quite ring true with reality, ie that there ARE allusions and FIGURATIVE language inuse throughout the bible.
burning alive was,and i think is, the worst possible way to go. it is no wonder that fire and burning are the ideas used to describe Hell.
but we get to what exactly IS it...
when a soul is condemned, it means that that soul cannot relate to and with God, it is pushed away because the crap it has done. and what has the soul done? rejected God. told God to go screw Himself. "*I* know better whatis right then you do" and there is the 'condemned' part.
who does the condemning? it's a choice, and everyone makes that choice. one way or the other.
does God honour our choices? yup. regardless of being right or wrong, He allows us to continue to make choices. regardless of us telling Him 'hey thanks' or 'pffffft'
simply put, as best as i can reconcile between all the stuff i have read, is that Hell is the eternal seperation from God and His grace. the suffering and all, is self inflicted by that soul who realizes how screwed up they were. or just that there is *nothing* to do by themselves. the attempts to put into human understanding what a soul alone feels (since noone can know) and suffers yields ( to my thinking anyway) the idea of burning forever.
yes God loves His creations, and i think it is precisely that love which allows us to live as we please, and not be forced to His plan. can He? yes. but would we then be alive?
as far as prayer answers and all, i've found that ones that i ask for myself end to go by the wayside. do *I* really need what i'm asking for.... or is it just a want.... is it something selfish or something for someone else. i've found that the ones for others are a LOT more apt to have good come of them.
many people try to complicate Christianity beyond whatit needs to be. or Judaism, and probably everything else. believing God exists is NOT enough, Satan believes God exists. His problem, was being greedy/prideful and thinking he WAS God. satan wanted nothing more than to be in Heaven and in charge of stuff.
the big part is to believe God when He says He DOES love you. and to accept that we by ourselves choose more often to ignore Him than to honour what He has done. we must acknowledge the sacrifices made, and that our telling God off is forgiven us. and realize that nothing we say or do can make up for all that we have done already...
i know none of this helps assuage the grief felt over a tragic loss like this. but it hought i'd try to answer a little of that anyway. the drunk driving thing is an abomination. i think that if they started executing drunk drivers on the spot that drunk driving would decline SHARPLY. "got any last wishes? sorry you didn't give these people that chance *POP*"
but in our feelgood-let them off with slap on the wrist- the drunks are the real victims society we have, it wouldn't fly.
3 people are dead, and that guy will likely actually GET Some jailtime.
had it been a motorcyclist killed, he would probably be walking out of jail with little or no bond.
life is tough. i could die today, because some jerkoff wanting to be cool. it would certainly give some people pause. others would care less. would it ruin my family? i certainly hope not. i would hope they would continue to LIVE in my absence and not dwell on my passing, but on what i gave instead. and yes i understand there is difference between ideal and reality. i will do my best to make sure my passing is not a burden on anyone. but there is only so much you can do.
would my getting killed mean God cared less about me than the drunk? no. it would mean that drunk cared more about himself than anyone else around him. he was too proud to call for a ride. too proud to call a taxi and have someone drive himout hten ext day to get his car
too stupid to have someone drop him off KNOWING he was gonna get blitzed. too selfish to care that his cations would hurt someone else.
and that my friends is what happens when God lets US handle life.
 
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