aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted July 31, 2003 11:04 PM
arrogance,if they won't buy another kawasaki what aill happen to their web site.I'm not sure how many bikes KMC produces a year but,I don't think 1000 ZX12R owners will ruffle any feathers.Whether they are good or bad is irrelevant,the 12's just don't sell very good and in my opinion,are a
dead model. Reading his post,he admits to racing several of his bikes and that he passed at 7000-10000 rpms in fourth gear which is well into the triple digits.The 12 maybe built for speed,so at what point are you abusing the motor?It may have a redline but that doesn't mean you're not stressing it below that. Kudos to him for riding out a dangerous situation and I feel for his bad luck.It sucks when life throws you a curve ball and I'll admit I can act a little juvenile when I don't get my way sometimes.Perhaps he would have better luck asking for a discount on a new model as compensation.Having said that,web sites are cool to scream and holler.Let the man vent.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
  
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted August 01, 2003 02:43 AM
This type of thread is why I dont bother with ZX-12.org
Buncha knuckleheads over there.
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted August 01, 2003 04:37 AM
They'll give you a virtual ass whoopin'
quote:
- by Turbodogfucker  -This type of thread is why I dont bother with ZX-12.org
Buncha knuckleheads over there.
This means war...................
YOU LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted August 01, 2003 08:05 AM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 1 Aug 2003 09:07
actually, alive... yer wrong about the selling of the 12's.... infact you could contact our sponsor BBY kawi and ask them as they are the #1 seller of Kawi products in Canada (for volume... ) hard to believe as it's such a small shop but it's true.....
anyways.... they sold out of 12's completely this season and last... Infact they're pretty much sold out everywhere... the changes in the bodywork, angine and finally some favourable press have created the opposite effect... Busa's languishing on the showroom floor...
BTW.... even though the 02/03 12's sell out, you can STILL get a brand new 01 and even find an 00 new in the box if you look hard and IMHO anyone NOT buying one of those would be a twit.....
after dumping a pile of money into any one of those bikes (00, 01, 02 etc etc) the differences would be splitting hairs...
Plus the 00 has the coolest speedo you'll ever buy!
so there.... now back to your regularly scheduled debate.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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nedragr
Zone Head
Posts: 504
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posted August 01, 2003 11:39 AM
Looks and sounds like the motor warrenty issue is dead. Ray has found out that KMCC will not help in the rebuild. His local shop is willing to work with him, but the part's and labor border on 7 to $8000. I'm sure he'll try find a different motor. I do have to commend the guy for trying to seek help. It's better to try and fail, then to have never tried at all. I still hope that this is a isolated incident. Jeff
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Real racebikes run premix!!
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted August 01, 2003 12:01 PM
yeah, a used motor (or even a new crate motor from muzzys) is cheaper than that. $8000 is kinda rediculous. should be abel to get a used motor for 2 to $2500 and just slap er in there.
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted August 01, 2003 12:14 PM
Maybe it was $8k Canadian? Cause if that was USA $$$, you got it right about it being rediculous!
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted August 02, 2003 07:49 AM
I CAN NOT BELIEVE THIS!!! A post on Sportbikes.com on the same topic thread:
These ZX-12 engine bearing failures were quite widely reported back in 2000 when the ZX-12 first appeared. I am just thankful that the ZX-9 motor has a reputation of being practically unbreakable even if it is bit noisy.
Where do people come up with this stuff?
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted August 02, 2003 08:01 AM
Now that is BS!
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted August 02, 2003 08:05 AM
Some people just live to "stir the pot", instead of sitting down and breaking bread. Unbelieveable. I'll admit that I'm a biased Kawboy, but has there been a more reliable brand of sportbike than Kawasaki? I can remember pretty dramatic failures/recalls on Honda's & Suzukis. Can't recall on Yamaha's??? Oh well, I guess anyone can say whatever. That's why we live in the USA! (no offense to any of our foreign brothers, we can just get away with it easier!!!!). I just hate it when they are misinformed and/or don't know a fricking shit about what they are talking about!
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted August 02, 2003 09:55 AM
I have seen GM and other MFG's bite the bullet and belly up on items like this.
We're not talking 1000 dollars here. This is major. Engine can't even be rebuilt. Cases completely blown apart.
This is not normal out of pocket expense for any rider. One month beyond warranty.
The reason some of has backed Ray is because we have met him and seen his bike and his wifes bike. I for one could tell Ray did not abuse his bike.
Now for some of you to call friends stepping up to the plate and help friends names is very sad.
What are friends for?
Like I said I have met Ray/Edgetoedge and if you would have read his posts on his previous bikes and the mileage he has gotten out of them you would see this could happen to you.
I had no choice to go extended warranty. My bike came outta the shop 3 day before warranty expired for major engine work. I opted for the extended warranty because of this.
Each and every one of you put yourself in Rays shoes and think about your bike sitting in a garage 13 months old with an engine that can't be repaired.
Then call your friends who are trying to help names. As you riders are doing on this thread.
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Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted August 02, 2003 10:03 AM
quote:
actually, alive... yer wrong about the selling of the 12's.... infact you could contact our sponsor BBY kawi and ask them as they are the #1 seller of Kawi products in Canada (for volume... ) hard to believe as it's such a small shop but it's true.....
anyways.... they sold out of 12's completely this season and last... Infact they're pretty much sold out everywhere... the changes in the bodywork, angine and finally some favourable press have created the opposite effect... Busa's languishing on the showroom floor...
BTW.... even though the 02/03 12's sell out, you can STILL get a brand new 01 and even find an 00 new in the box if you look hard and IMHO anyone NOT buying one of those would be a twit.....
after dumping a pile of money into any one of those bikes (00, 01, 02 etc etc) the differences would be splitting hairs...
Plus the 00 has the coolest speedo you'll ever buy!
so there.... now back to your regularly scheduled debate.
So I guess you have rode an 02 though some twisty roads at your max level?
Or maybe you have owned both?
Would this be somebody spouting rumors about the two bikes with no abilty to back it up?
I've owned both. 01 and an 02 your quote above is complretely wrong. The seat alone is worth buying an 02 or above for. Thats just one reason amoung 20 reasons I can rattle off in a seconds notice.
You wanna try me?
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Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted August 02, 2003 05:06 PM
Edited By: redelk on 2 Aug 2003 18:08
On 7/29, Ray posted that after KCM examined the motor and they would not assist in it's repair or replacement. Why? What was KCM's opinion on what caused this failure? It doesn't matter if it was B.S. or not, surely they explained to the dealer what they believed to be the cause. Someone needs to find out. If there is a reason different then that of KCM's and can be proven by independent experts, then there can be a valid argument. First, KCM has to be proven wrong, without any doubt. Even if he were able to prove that they were indeed wrong in their diagnosis of the cause, his chances were still slim to none that they would do anything to assist in his plight. Sadly, they are under no legal obligation to do so.
Though I can't easily find where I personally called anyone "names", I will say that by bombarding KCM/KHI with demanding e-mails or threatening to never buy another Kawasaki product is hardly beneficial to his cause. The proof that it is not is right in the very thread that this issue appeared in. After all the threats, e-mails and other demanding statements, what was the "results"? I believe that was stated on 7/29. We will never know if any of it truly had a negative impact, but one thing is for certain... it did NOT have a positive one. Acting like a demanding "gang of hooligans" to a global corporation where their Consumer Products division is nothing more then a blip on their annual report*, is not the actions of "friends". To use the membership of a forum as a threatening tool against a corporation such as KHI is both foolhardy and counter productive. I do know that such actions would not be "stepping up the plate to help a friend". IMHO, Ray would have been far better off to be allowed to handle this personally between his dealer and KCM.
As I have repeated stated both here and at Esportbike.com is that what has happened to Ray is both sad and unfortunate. I've also said that from what I have read, he is indeed a "stand up" guy and it appears that he did not abuse his bike. It also appears that the bike was properly maintained and there does not seem to be a valid reason for such a failure to occur with so little mileage on the engine. The fact still remains that the for what ever reason, the bearing did fail and his standard warranty did expire. "Goodwill", "Improve Customer Relations" or "Manufacturing Defect" might all be good reasons for KCM to offer some form of assistance, but if anything, by making this such an extremely "public issue" on what KCM should do, prior to them ever seeing the engine, pretty well sealed the fate of what most reasonable folks expected to happen.
I can assure you that if KCM did replace his engine after his warranty had expired, every street racing, bike abusing squid would use Ray's case as a perfect example of why KCM or KMC-US should also fix their bikes as well and they would have legal precedence to use in a lawsuit. Honoring such "requests" on a case by case basis would be nice, but from what posts I have read of those "stepping up the plate to help a friend"... I really did see a whole lot of "requests" among them. Just demands and threats.
* - Though the CPD made up 24.6% of KHI's group sales, it also had the largest loss in Operating Income at 20% over the previous year (not counting the write offs in the Plant & Infrastructure Engineering division). As a matter of fact, it was the only division (again, not counting P&IE's write off) that had a negative OI. Needless to say, after fighting off Daimler-Chrysler's hostile takeover attempt a few years back, the CP division is not KHI's "favorite son" it's more like it's "albatross".
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted August 02, 2003 05:34 PM
I stand corrected.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted August 02, 2003 06:13 PM
Edited By: Outlaw1 on 2 Aug 2003 19:16
Red Elk I'm not here to scald name callers but to give a reason for our backing of Ray. If in fact your balls were as big as your vocabulary then you would stop lurking on 12.Org site and give your frame of mindN ON THAT SITE AND IN THE THREAD STARTED.
I'm backing Ray cause its a shitload of money for a total engine failure with that low of miles. PERIOD
And I also consider the man a friend of mine. What I do with my spare time has no concern to you Red Elk. I find this thread uncalled for since it is directed to members of another site. And very coward on your part Red Elk, Submitt your thoughts on 12.Org site if you think not.
My name is Norman Red Elk And I have been the proud owner of the Phantom Silver 01 and The Peral Mystic Black 02 ZX12R.
Norm..
We are some buddys helping out a friend. Or aint this what the forum was designed for Red Elk?
P.S Red Elk IMHO you should ride more and type less
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Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted August 02, 2003 06:34 PM
Edited By: Outlaw1 on 2 Aug 2003 19:42
quote:
quote:
actually, alive... yer wrong about the selling of the 12's.... infact you could contact our sponsor BBY kawi and ask them as they are the #1 seller of Kawi products in Canada (for volume... ) hard to believe as it's such a small shop but it's true.....
anyways.... they sold out of 12's completely this season and last... Infact they're pretty much sold out everywhere... the changes in the bodywork, angine and finally some favourable press have created the opposite effect... Busa's languishing on the showroom floor...
BTW.... even though the 02/03 12's sell out, you can STILL get a brand new 01 and even find an 00 new in the box if you look hard and IMHO anyone NOT buying one of those would be a twit.....
after dumping a pile of money into any one of those bikes (00, 01, 02 etc etc) the differences would be splitting hairs...
Plus the 00 has the coolest speedo you'll ever buy!
so there.... now back to your regularly scheduled debate.
So I guess you have rode an 02 though some twisty roads at your max level?
Or maybe you have owned both?
Would this be somebody spouting rumors about the two bikes with no abilty to back it up?
I've owned both. 01 and an 02 your quote above is complretely wrong. The seat alone is worth buying an 02 or above for. Thats just one reason amoung 20 reasons I can rattle off in a seconds notice.
You wanna try me?
Red Elk You wanna Try me?
You did'nt answer my question. Since you broadstroked the 02 and above folks for being twits for buying a bike that goes beyond the capabiltys of the 00/01? You wanna try me?
P.S IMHO Red Elk you type faster than you can think....
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted August 03, 2003 05:05 AM
Edited By: redelk on 3 Aug 2003 06:14
Try you for what? Is that your "question" to me? What are you talking about? Please, like I have said at sportbikes.com, I am a simpleton. What is your question? Is it why I don't post at Dale's site? Maybe you should as Dale. The fact I can't log on to his site might have something to do with it. Would you like to see the e-mails Dale and I exchanged about it? Is your question about what are these forums for? What?
Geez... whatever. 
I haven't said anything about A models versus B models on this thread or any other. But if it means anything to you, I have put plenty of miles on A1, A2, B1 and B2 models. I could not agree with you more about the B series seat. I have one on my A1. Of course, I also prefer the 7R swingarm too.
When have I said anything about what you do in your spare time? Me thinks one might read faster then they think.
So what kind of mileage you got on your 12R. 20K? 30K? Backroads? In town? Interstates? Track time? I'm not too worried about "typing less and riding more". I get a few miles in between posts....
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Sorry, folks couldn't resist... 
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted August 03, 2003 07:43 AM
Sorry red elk I fooked up. I mixed you up with fish antlers calling me a twit for owning an 02 B1 12R.
I had 7500 on my A2 model and I have 8900 on my B1 model Red Elk. I don't agree with your thread here. We are just trying to help a good man out that is going though some bad times right now.
Sorry for the mix up on names red elk. It was fish antlers that broadstroked us B1 model owners for being twits.
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Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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Phil
Expert Class
Posts: 420
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posted August 03, 2003 09:21 AM
My service manager called Kawasaki to see if they would warranty my alternater for leaking oil thru the wires , the bike had 4000 miles on it but was a few months past on time. I didn't expect them to fix it but didn't think it would hurt to ask. He got laughed at on the phone. The point being what don't you understand about 12@12. As for the bearing the only failure I ever heard about in the last three years was way back when on an early bike in Europe,if I remember right, that blew while getting the everloveing shit beat out of it by a journalist, this was then followed by the extended breakin notice, hardly seams like a wide spread problem some claim.
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necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
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posted August 03, 2003 10:09 AM
My dealer (Bellevue Kawasaki) treats me well.
I got my bike in April of 2000. In June or July, the fuel gauge went out. It happened before they had a recall on them, so they replaced under the normal warranty. Few months ago, the fuel level gauge went out again. I wasn't sure if they were going to warranty it. They said since the first one was replace by the warranty, they could replace this one under the recall. Now some other dealer might have said "sorry we have to charge you".
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3829
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted August 03, 2003 10:40 AM
personally i can't complain about warranty handling. i even got my front brake rotors warranties when they warped. far as i know that's unheard of! i was a very happy boy that day. normally that's something they dont warranty for obvious reasons, so i take it most as a gesture of goodwill more than admittance of a problem.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted August 03, 2003 04:19 PM
Outlaw, no problem. Fish's "rants" often get me confused too! The thing is that there is some "reason" in Fish's ramblings.
BTW.... even though the 02/03 12's sell out, you can STILL get a brand new 01 and even find an 00 new in the box if you look hard and IMHO anyone NOT buying one of those would be a twit.....
IMHO, I believe this has more to do with difference in their "sale price" instead of "stock performance". Still, I also believe there's more then one reason why there are leftover A models and B models are sold out.
When comparing "stock vs. stock", the B model will smoke the A model in the twisties. The B's reworked suspension (revalved forks, changed shock spring rate, etc.), changes in the rider's position (different handlebar/peg locations, narrower/ sharper angled seat, etc.) and the engine changes (heavier flywheel, oval throttle pulley, etc.)... all make for a bike that feels lighter, acellerate smoother and responds to cornering input far better then the A model ever dreamed of.
I don't think Fish was calling in one person a "twit"
Now his next comment kinda changes "the rules of the game".
... after dumping a pile of money into any one of those bikes (00, 01, 02 etc etc) the differences would be splitting hairs...
This also has quite a bit of validity to it. I figure a pile of money would likely include the following (keeping in mind that this would be "twisty oriented"):
1270 or 1360 kit
Muzzy damper
Wave rotors/SS -2 lines
Aftermarket wheels
RaceTech fork springs/valving
Penske/Ohlins shock
P series 7R swingarm
Pirelli Super Corsas (120/70 F & 190/55 R)
A visit to Computrack to set everything up
CF everything (bodywork, tank, etc.)
Titanium everything else (bolts, brackets, etc.)
... etc., etc., etc.
Indeed after spending this very big pile of money, the difference between the A and B models would be splitting hairs. Very thin hairs, at that.
Now as for "riding instead of typing", my good ole A model has almost 46,000 miles on it. My '97 7R had almost 69,000 miles. Not to mention my '90 EX 500, '91 KDX 200 (which I just restored), XL 250S, DR 350S and so on. I do not ride to work, ride in town or the local bike hang out. My work keeps my riding time resticted to weekend riding only.
As many of the members here know, I am a recovering addict (clean just shy of 2500 days) and like many addicts and alcoholics, I have just change my "drug of choice" from something that was "socially unacceptable" to one the is "borderline acceptable" (violating traffic laws isn't really that "acceptable"). The rest of the boring details of my past are moot. The point is that I pursue my current "drug of choice" with the same obsessive manner as I did my previous one.
Even with the amount of almost nothing but seriously twisty Arkansas back highway mileage that I have ridden, several track days and a CMRA Novice racing license, most of the members here can also acknowledge that it sure as hell has not made me very fast or a extremely skilled rider. If anything, I am just a guy who needs to get a life, grow some balls and quit striping my bike down to the frame everytime I get caught in a little rain storm.
As I mentioned in the Sportbikes.com thread, I did work at one of the nation's leading Kawasaki dealers for a short while. Besides the perks of getting an employee discount and access to tools I could not afford (tire changer, spin balancers, leak down testers, etc.), I also got access to all the K-Tech bulletins, service manual adendums and recalls.
It also gave me a brief exposure on how KHI-U.S. treats warranty and non-warranty claims. Just like you stated about GM, KHI has also replaced or repaired items that were either not covered under any warranty or after the warranty had expired. frEEk's rotor replacement is one example, just as some of the clutch basket claims were covered (some were not).
IMHO, it's the customer's relationship with the dealer and the dealer's relationship with corporate has a lot to do with claims being honored or declined. Still, even when the dealer is fairly influential with corporate and seriously fights for customer's plight, all of this will not assure a honored claim. Trying to figure out or find reason in why they honor some and decline other similar claims... will just drive you insane.
After more then a decade, I still can't figure it out or find any reason/logic in why the handle claims the way they do. One thing I do know is that if they have a "legal way out" of not honoring a claim, there's a fairly good chance that they will take it. Sadly, in Ray's case, no matter how unfair, their "out" was just too glaringly obvious. No warranty, no repair. All other issues and aspects are moot. Fair? No. Fact? An easy "Yes".
I also respect the desire of those wanting to assist Ray with a major problem that should not have happened. It does not mean I felt that some of the ways they tried assist was really being helpful. Just as I respect your right to disagree with my viewpoint on this issue. Keeping in mind, that is all it is. My personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not claim to be "right", because this is not an issue that comes down to "right" or "wrong". The only "real wrong" here is the bearing should not have failed. Everything else is "opinion". In my humble "opinion".
I do not believe I am a "coward" for posting my opinions on this issue here. It was at Sportbikes.com's Kawasaki forum that I first became aware of Ray's problem and I have tried to share my opinions there. Because of my views on this, as well as the importance of warranties and major claims, I felt it was worth bringing to the attention of the members of this forum as well. I also felt it was important to remain current on what was happening by reading what was additional posted at both Sportbikes.com and at Dale's site.
Though we all have the ability to post here or at Sportbikes.com, not all of us have that ability at ZX-12R.org. Let's just say that I am not welcomed to post there and leave it at that. I can assure you, if I could, what I have said here and at Sportsbikes.com would be just as easily repeated at Dale's site. I have no need to "hide" here or anywhere else because of some perceived fear of what others would say concerning my opinions.
Having said all that, I not only welcome you and nedragr sharing your perspective on this, I sincerely thank both of you for taking the time and trouble to do so. It would do this important topic a serious injustice if all viewpoints were not given a chance to be heard. Being modeled after the original "Library", as well as the original ZX-12R forum (Jeroen's ZX11/ZX12R forums), the members' having the ability to post ALL viewpoints is the cornerstone of how this forum is moderated.
I guess you and I will just have to agree that we disagree on this issue. If there is a "fund" started to assist Ray get a new motor, let us know. Speaking for just myself, I would be willing to chip in what little I can to help a fellow 12R owner. If it does come down to him having to replace the engine, besides looking into used motors and all the unknowns that come with them, he might look into a "create motor" from Muzzy. Not only can he possibly save money over getting one from his dealer, but he won't have to worry about what the previous owner did or did not do to the used motor.
Seeing as he was very lucky (and probably very skilled) to have not wrecked when the motor let go, it just doesn't seem right to take a chance of it happening again with a used motor.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Outlaw1
Zone Head
Posts: 803
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posted August 03, 2003 04:47 PM
Thanks Red Elk for the welcome and I agree with some of your viewpoints on these issues. I did opt for the extended warranty. But like I said my cylinder and one piston and all the rings were replaced.
When they tore my engine apart the engine was in perfect condition. Except the one cylinder bore. It was gouged. Since the fact that all the other cylinders, bearings rings, showed no signs of neglect, I had no problems with warranty claim. cut and dry. But I'm anal about changing my oil also. 1200 miles is my max allowed time for oil in crankcase.
I think if the oil pump was looked at on Rays bike they might find the culprit there, I can't understand the wear on the bearings myself, Unless its oil pump related.
Red Elk there is many fine members here on your site as well as 12.Org site. I will gather info from both sites. I like to aquire info about the ZX12.
I'm sorry your not able to post on that site. I will talk to Dale when he comes back from vacation.
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Lead, Follow, Or get the hell outta the way.
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