redelk
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posted July 30, 2003 12:56 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 30 Jul 2003 13:58
Your opinions of a post warranty claim
While at the Kawasaki forum at Sportbikes.com, I ran across this thread about a bearing failure on a 12R.
http://www.sportbikes.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=rant&Number=495312&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
I read the posts on that thread as well as the link to the original thread on Dale's site. From what I understand, a 12R owner in Canada had less then 10,000 miles on his 12R and a month after his warranty expired, one of the main bearings failed and the engine basically exploded.
I find the replies on both threads a tad confusing. Thought the bearing should NOT have failed with such low mileage, but why does everyone feel that KMC-Canada should repair or replace the engine at no cost to the owner? Again, his warranty had expired a month earlier.
Many are swearing that they will never buy another Kawasaki and are cancelling their orders for the new 10R, just because of this owner's experience. What I find more concerning is that some are stating that this should be repaired at KMC's expense because it is a KNOWN PROBLEM.
Oh really? Main bearing failure is a known problem for the ZX-12R? To refer to the ZX11 is a moot point since they are completely different engines and share no design similarities. What has happen here is unquestionably unfortunate. If the bike was properly ridden and maintained as claimed by the owner, it also should not have happened. But no matter what the details of the situation are, there is just one simple fact that rises above it all... the warranty has expired. Also, for just a fraction of what it will cost to repair or replace the motor, he could have bought an extended warranty. Probably less then what has already been invested in removing and tearing down the motor.
Again, if the owner's claims of what the bike's condition is valid, this bearing failure should NOT have happened. Still, DEMANDING that KMC fix the bike or a 1000+ members of a website forum will take their "business" elsewhere is a tad much. At least in my opinion. Sure, it would be "good PR" to replace the motor. It would also open the floodgates of those who have problems with their bikes after their warranty expires. Most likely, the majority of those claims could involve owner abuse and/or neglect. Yes, this case is probably different, but from a business viewpoint, that fact will be quickly lost. Hindsight is always 20/20 and I think that this is just another example of why it is important to invest in an extended warranty. Especially since one has a full year from the time they purchase the bike to actually buy one.
I guess my questions are:
1. Because of this one owner's misfortune, will you not consider buying another Kawasaki product?
2. Should KMC-Canada be expected to pick up all the expenses of the repair, even though the warranty had expired?
3. Has "main bearing failures" be so common with ZX-12Rs that it should be considered a "known problem"?
My answers would be no, no and no. His case is both sad and unfortunate, but to demand or expect KMC to do anything about it is asking a bit much. It would be nice if they did pay for and I, myself would not hesitate to ask and attempt to do the same thing. It's just that when they said "no", I guess I'd just have to suck it up and pay for the repairs myself. On the other hand, I figure that is why I have always purchased an extended warranty and traded in the bike prior to that warranty's expiration.
I guess I just can't relate.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
   
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Ninjaman12R
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posted July 30, 2003 01:45 PM
Let me finish this joint real quick like.....pppppffffffffffffttttt
Sherm,
May I answer the questions???
Ok kewl........
Answers
1. This will have no bearing on me purchasing another Kawasaki product. I have had 3 big bore Kaws and have beat the shit out of all of them. (Well maintained them I might add) Nary a whimper, and that's a statement. Take the 12R extended break in for example, I tried to adhere to it. Lasted less than 150 miles before I was banging the shit out of the rev limiter and riding clutch wheelies.  Lil' Red is one tough biatch.
2. NO!!!!!! His warranty has expired. That's the chance you take when you don't cough up the miniscule (when compaired to the cost of a major repair bill) amount of loot and purchase the extended warranty. Like you said, if Kaw fixes this bike, it will open the floodgates with other "similar" issues.
3. I have heard of bearing failures on the 12R, but I'd say it was the exception rather than the norm.
Ultimately, I'd have to say the guy needs to chalk this up as what I like to call "Shithouse Luck". I hate to hear about a guys' bike scattering a motor because that means he is about to be shelling out serious loot. BUT he had the same opportunity to buy the ext. warranty that all of us had when he purchased the 12R. The school of hard knocks can be a motherfucker at times, I know firsthand. He needs to let this be a valuable lesson. I really don't know why anyone would buy a sportbike without getting the ext. warranty. You know you're gonna beat the crap out of the thing. Right???????
I won't say much about the large number of board members threatening to take their business elsewhere. I'll just start and stop with: "It sounds a little drastic to me".
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ZX12R NINJA
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posted July 30, 2003 01:48 PM
I agree with NINJAMAN 12R
quote:Sherm,
May I answer the questions???
Ok kewl........
Answers
1. This will have no bearing on me purchasing another Kawasaki product. I have had 3 big bore Kaws and have beat the shit out of all of them. (Well maintained them I might add) Nary a whimper, and that's a statement. Take the 12R extended break in for example, I tried to adhere to it. Lasted less than 150 miles before I was banging the shit out of the rev limiter and riding clutch wheelies. Lil' Red is one tough biatch.
2. NO!!!!!! His warranty has expired. That's the chance you take when you don't cough up the miniscule (when compaired to the cost of a major repair bill) amount of loot and purchase the extended warranty. Like you said, if Kaw fixes this bike, it will open the floodgates with other "similar" issues.
3. I have heard of bearing failures on the 12R, but I'd say it was the exception rather than the norm.
Ultimately, I'd have to say the guy needs to chalk this up as what I like to call "Shithouse Luck". I hate to hear about a guys' bike scattering a motor because that means he is about to be shelling out serious loot. BUT he had the same opportunity to buy the ext. warranty that all of us had when he purchased the 12R. The school of hard knocks can be a motherfucker at times, I know firsthand. He needs to let this be a valuable lesson. I really don't know why anyone would buy a sportbike without getting the ext. warranty. You know you're gonna beat the crap out of the thing. Right???????
I won't say much about the large number of board members threatening to take their business elsewhere. I'll just start and stop with: "It sounds a little drastic to me".
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ZX12R NINJA
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Posts: 113
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posted July 30, 2003 01:48 PM
I agree with NINJAMAN 12R
quote:Sherm,
May I answer the questions???
Ok kewl........
Answers
1. This will have no bearing on me purchasing another Kawasaki product. I have had 3 big bore Kaws and have beat the shit out of all of them. (Well maintained them I might add) Nary a whimper, and that's a statement. Take the 12R extended break in for example, I tried to adhere to it. Lasted less than 150 miles before I was banging the shit out of the rev limiter and riding clutch wheelies. Lil' Red is one tough biatch.
2. NO!!!!!! His warranty has expired. That's the chance you take when you don't cough up the miniscule (when compaired to the cost of a major repair bill) amount of loot and purchase the extended warranty. Like you said, if Kaw fixes this bike, it will open the floodgates with other "similar" issues.
3. I have heard of bearing failures on the 12R, but I'd say it was the exception rather than the norm.
Ultimately, I'd have to say the guy needs to chalk this up as what I like to call "Shithouse Luck". I hate to hear about a guys' bike scattering a motor because that means he is about to be shelling out serious loot. BUT he had the same opportunity to buy the ext. warranty that all of us had when he purchased the 12R. The school of hard knocks can be a motherfucker at times, I know firsthand. He needs to let this be a valuable lesson. I really don't know why anyone would buy a sportbike without getting the ext. warranty. You know you're gonna beat the crap out of the thing. Right???????
I won't say much about the large number of board members threatening to take their business elsewhere. I'll just start and stop with: "It sounds a little drastic to me".
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k bryant
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posted July 30, 2003 02:07 PM
Agree; no, no, no.
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redelk
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posted July 30, 2003 03:14 PM
Guys, you can imagine how hard it is for me to hold back my opinions on their "threats" to quite buying KHI products or sending a bunching of e-mails "with the power of a forum's membership" behind it. I just know that I'd likely say some things I might later regret. Let's just say that IMHO, the attitudes shown here are very similar to Fish's "Motorcycling is not a welfare sport" thread.
This is not to say that I don't feel that KHI/KMC has not ignored "known problems" with the 12R in the past. The A model clutch basket is a perfect example of that. When it becomes such a problem that more then one aftermarket manufacturer starts making parts to address it, I find it difficult to accept the statement, "the number of occurances are insignificant". On the other hand, I have not seen a big demand for aftermarket bearings for basically unaltered stock motors.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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necro
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posted July 30, 2003 03:16 PM
quote:
I agree with NINJAMAN 12R
I agree also.
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nedragr
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posted July 30, 2003 06:37 PM
Those that live in glass house's, shouldn't cast stones!! We're all in the same boat here you guys. This could just be the tip of the ice berg or it could just be "shithouse luck" I've owned Kawi products for over 30 years and never had much of, or any kind of motor problems. How many of us have ever ponied up the $400 for the extended warrenty when your reminder came in the mail? I agree he was out of warrenty as I stated in the original post, and it was going to be an uphill battle. A little good will goes along way into keeping or gaining market share. As someone else stated, with the tough compitition out there, you'd think these guys would at least make an offer to help out. So far nadda!!! So pony up your money for those extended warrenties boys, because Kawi does give a rats butt after 365 days.
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TurboBlew
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posted July 30, 2003 07:47 PM
What a bunch of morons. NO NO NO.
What....do they think a Suzuki is gonna be better??? lol 
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kawachan
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posted July 30, 2003 09:03 PM
Believe me.....Susucki is WAY WORSE. I've had two "in warranty" claims denied by those fuckwads!! 96 SRAD and my 00 Busa No more Zuks for me ever!!
Answers are NO, NO, NO
You have to ask the guy, "So if it had lasted a million miles, would you have sent Kawasaki MORE money?" Well, of course he wouldn't...so why does he expect KHI to extend the warranty period for FREE in his case. He paid for 365 days warranty and that is what he got. No more, no less!!
He's a crackhead
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frEEk
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ummm... yeah
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posted July 30, 2003 10:03 PM
i'd generaly say i agree on the three "No"s, but given that a main bearing failure that soon in the bike's life is rather unexpected, they prolly oughta give him a deal on teh repairs, like do it at cost rather than the horrendous amount it would cost at full retail. maybe it would cost him a couple grand rather than 4 or 5. wont cost kawi anything that way, but they also dont get potentially screwed into coughin up for a new engine just cause the guy didnt change his oil or whatever (which may or may not have been the case, but they can't know that). so yeah, it's definitely shit luck, and it would be a good move for them to fix it at cost, but to _demand_ that of kawi is not right either.
as to all the threats of pulling business... who are they kiddin? first of all, u jsut know of the 100 people who say "i'm gonna buy the 10r when it comes out", maybe 10 of them actually will. plus there's bound to be another 100 that will _say_ they were gonna buy kawi jsut to add to the pressure. but if kawi would/could hold them all to it, they'd be jumpin ship mighty fast.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted July 31, 2003 05:49 AM
<----spent the money to put extended warranties on all of my bikes...My answers would be no, NO , and HELL NO.....and thats all I got to say about that.....
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redelk
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posted July 31, 2003 06:22 AM
Edited By: redelk on 31 Jul 2003 07:27
nedragr, I believe many are missing some obvious points here.
The "cost" of making this "goodwill gesture" might be minimal to KCMC, but the liability reprecussions would easily go into the millions. It would set them up for all kinds of claims that could end up in a court room and Ray's case would be first on their list.
Many said that these extended warranties are just money makers for the dealers and Kawasaki. For the most part, they are correct. On the other hand, when I bought my '00 (the first one to arrive in my state), I did not wait until I got the notice in the mail. I made it part of the original deal. Being a new model with many unique design aspects, it was simply the logical thing to do.
Also, seeing as how this bike would not be ridden like a Nomad, but flogged (it's meaning varies from rider to rider), made all the more reasonable to view it as a necessity and not an option. Any former experences with KHI products would be a moot point. When I traded in my '97 7R for the 12R, it had almost 69,000 miles (110,000 km) on it. Would that be reason to not "need" an extended warranty? No. I had one on that bike as well. Being transferable, it actually increased it's trade in value.
So, was it a waste on the 7R? This is where one's relationship with their dealer comes in and his willingness to go to bat for you. At 63K, my 7R would not stay in fifth gear. Due to the high mileage on the bike, their mechanic refused to open up the tranny, replace a few parts and then possibly have to go back in a few months later to replace something else. Everything in between the input and output shafts were replaced. Every bearing, gear and circlip. It added up to a $1800 claim. What was the problem? A bent shift fork.
So far, on my 12R, I have claimed a lower fork tub (adjustment screw stripped) and the voltage regulator/generator set-up (fried harness plug). Either item would have cost me more then the value of the extended warranty. I just can't see why KCMC should bend over on this one.
Ray rolled the dice and he lost. No glass houses here. Those who choose to get the extended warranty "ain't in the same boat". If this had happened while the bike was covered under an extended warranty and they refused to fix it, I'd be right there with
ya'll. Hell, I'd be screamin' louder then anyone... including Ray!
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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jonwright
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posted July 31, 2003 06:22 AM
Yup. What they said.
(....heading to the Kawi shop to buy extended warranty)
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted July 31, 2003 06:37 AM
good move Jon....
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ScaredyCat
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posted July 31, 2003 07:06 AM
Yeah, bunch of assholes. You get what you pay for. Period.
As for warranties, I don't believe in them myself (had one on a car and it turned out to cover almost nothing). I always pride myself on looking after my bikes myself (especially the engine), and if it goes tits-up then it was probably my fault. Not always true, but usually. And I know when I've serviced it myself it was done right.
No-one knows how this guy has been treating his bike - cold start thrashing, wrong oil, etc. It could be a bad bearing but I seriously doubt it.
Redelk, you're right - making an exception begs the question - "where to stop?" - 50,000 miles? 100,000 miles? 20 years?
These guys are all mouth, ignore them.
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If it ain't broke, BREAK IT.
 
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kawachan
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posted July 31, 2003 08:23 AM
It could be as simple as the guy burning up a couple of sets of clutches and the extra fibres stopping up his oil pickup. Run low on oil? Teardown inspection should note why. No one ever posted the mech's conclusion of why it messed up.
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fish_antlers
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posted July 31, 2003 09:10 AM
"FM" ..... "fucking magic"
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redelk
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posted July 31, 2003 09:44 AM
All other bearing were pristine and there were no obvious signs of oil contamination or starvation.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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nedragr
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posted July 31, 2003 01:28 PM
Here's a copy of Ray's last plea for help from Kawasaki Canada; If you guys want to read what Ray has to say instead of all the trash talking, name calling that seems to get delivered in posts on the internet. He's a stand up guy, and if he gets help, so be it. If not, he'll live with it, shit happens!! After reading the responses on this board, I sure hope it doesn't happen here.
P.S. As for the bike manufacture's 12mo/12,000mi warrenty!! When are they gonna move into the 21st century. We all know it's ridiculous. But that's another topic.
Edge2Edge ......... states:
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I have just learned that Kawasaki will NOT cover any repairs to my motor. Needless to say I am at a complete loss. I am attempting one last effort to resolve this matter in a manner that is benifical to both me and Kawasaki...I guess I will be loyal to the end. Here is a copy of the e-mail I sent a while ago.
To Whom it may concern,
I had the motor on my 2002 Kawasaki ZX-12R blow up on the way back from the ZX-12R.ORG rally in the Black Hills of South Dakota. The motor is being shipped from Blackfoot Motosports in Calgary to Kawasaki Canada. I would like to provide you with the details and a little about myself.
I am a 42 years old and I have been riding for over 20 years. I am an avid Kawasaki fan and have owned a 1986 900 Ninja(32,000km) a 1988 ZX-10(which I still own and have raced, 58,000km), a 1996 ZX-7(which I raced, 22,000km), a 1996 500 Ninja( which my wife Rae learned on, 12,000km), None of which had ANY problems what so ever. All were owned for at least two seasons and ridden well and maintained well.
I am a member of an internet group of Kawasaki enthusiasts at a zx12r site and I participate regularly in forums discussing Kawasaki products. I have never slammed or badmouthed my brand even after the motor blew up on my bike. Although I must tell you my trust has been shaken as I believed 100% that Kawasaki motors were "bulletproof".
I had the 12,000 km service performed at Blackfoot Motosports, in Calgary, just prior to leaving for the Black Hills Rally on 18 June 2003. After the rally I was enroute home just south of Calgary on Highway #2 northbound with my wife following on her own bike. I passed a car downshifting two gears passed quickly and then was decelerating when the engine began making noise, and suddenly lost power. The back end of the bike began to fishtail and I pulled in the clutch, at which point the engine died. I did not see the oil light come on, so I slowly began to let the clutch out to see if it would start, there was mechanical noise so I pulled the clutch back in and tried to coast to the right. A car passed me on the right and then my wife passed me on the left, I was able to pull off the road and come to a safe stop. There was oil all over the motor and ground. I could not see what had happened until I got onto the ground and noticed the #2 connecting rod protruding from the front of the crankcase. The revs were in the powerband (7,000-10,000 rpm) but not to redline during the pass, and they were still in that rev range when the motor blew. I contacted Blackfoot Motosports who retrieved the bike.
I was present when the motor was disassembled and I noted several things. The motor was in exceptional shape except for the obvious damage from the failure. This was clear as there was little to no wear visible on internal parts with 2 exceptions. 1: The #2 lower connecting rod bearing had seized locking the connecting rod in place, which then destroyed the #2 piston, cylinder head, cylinder, upper and lower crankcases. 2: The #1 and #4 lower connecting rod bearings showed signs of wear. The #3 lower connecting rod bearing did not show signs of wear. The mechanic initially said it was an oil starvation problem, until I pointed out that there was no other signs of wear in the motor indicative of low oil pressure. I took pictures of the damage and I left. I was apprised later that 5 mechanics from Blackfoot Motosports examined the motor and determined that there was no signs of oil starvation in the motor and therefore it was a bearing failure.
The motorcycle was just under 2 months out of warranty and has approximately 15,500km. I have done all of the maintenance as specified by the manual and the bike had just been serviced. I do not abuse my motorcycles, and I am very well known for how well my bikes are maintained.
I did not purchase the extended warranty as I have had nothing but exceptional performance and endurance from Kawasaki products. Again my belief that your motors are "bulletproof" was one of the main reasons for buying and being loyal to Kawasaki.
I respectfully ask that you help me with this matter by replacing the damaged motor. I know that I have the support of Blackfoot Motosports(another company that I remain loyal to) and they can attest to many of the statements I have made. Should you have any questions regarding this matter please contact me at (left out for security)
Yours Truly
Ray Mckenzie
I am absolutely sick over this, if I abused my bike then fine, pay the piper, but 15,500km(9,000miles) and all services done...what more could I have done? I am truly hoping that they will listen to the last effort I make...the dealer is helping me with this. If not they have lost a long standing, and loyal Kawasaki fan
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dougmeyer
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posted July 31, 2003 02:57 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 31 Jul 2003 15:58
I'm in total agreement. Bad luck, yes. Defect or "known problem", no. In fact, this is a perfect example of the kind of BS that seems to turn into "known facts". In the case of the ZX-11, THOUSANDS of people think there is an oiling problem or bearing problem with zx-11's. Isn't-never was. There is an oil QUANTITY problem in that you have to keep it in spec. and over spec. for certain types of use. I really know of no main bearing problems (without an associated rod bearing failure first due to oil starvation) on either engine. I would like to believe that from my experience in the U.S. this could be done as a goodwill cost share if properly handled (which public threats on the net is NOT). Bottom line is the warranty is expired. Warranties are like insurance policies. If you die a week after your life insurance expires-no bucks, period.
Doug
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redelk
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posted July 31, 2003 04:06 PM
Edited By: redelk on 31 Jul 2003 17:08
If you guys want to read what Ray has to say instead of all the trash talking, name calling that seems to get delivered in posts on the internet. He's a stand up guy, and if he gets help, so be it. If not, he'll live with it, shit happens!!
nedragr, I believe that the majority of what you might perceive as "trash talking and name calling" (at least on this forum) is aimed towards those that feel Kawasaki is OBLIGATED to make the repairs and they will not buy another Kawasaki product if they don't help Ray out. I do not believe anyone here is doubting that Ray is a stand up guy.
After reading the responses on this board, I sure hope it doesn't happen here.
I could not agree with you more. I could even go further and say that those of us here would not "wish" such misfortune on anyone. On this forum or any other. One thing I do know is that if a similar situation were to occur to one of the members of this forum, you would not see a single post threatening to bombard CKM/KMC-US/KHI with e-mails demanding that they fix this individual's bike. You also would not see folks swearing that they will not every buy another Kawasaki product because of it, either.
Probably like yourself, many of us here have owned or currently own several brands of motorcycles, ATVs and watercraft. Many of us have also dealt with the customer service folks of not only Kawasaki, but also with Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Ducati, Aprilia, KTM and some of us can even remember back to trying to deal with Hodaka, Penton, Bultaco, Montessa, Maico and Bridgestone (yes, they used to make motorcycles as well as tires - I had one).
In other words, for many of us, this ain't our first rodeo. The reason many of us might appear unsympathetic is that for many of us... we've been there, done that. In our previous experiences, we have learned that making warranty claims for obvious manufacturing defects are tough enough. As a matter of fact, having personally dealt with many of the above mentioned brands, I can say that Kawasaki is one of the best in honoring warranty claims with a minimal of fuss or interrogation. Honda might be a distant second and Suzuki is not even in the ball park. Hell, Suzuki isn't even in the parking lot!
Some of this has to do with one's local dealer to fight for you, but still, it is not like the attitude of these manufacturers concerning warranty claims has not be known. It's not like they have changed overnight. True, 20 years ago, it wasn't much of a problem to make a claim with any of them. Over the past 10 years, that has not been the case. Now days, getting them to acknowledge, much less repair a defect or failure under warranty, one would have better luck getting the local sheriff to let you keep his 16 year old daughter out after midnight.
Once that warranty had expired, it would be equal to asking if his daughter could spend the night at your house while your parents are out of town. It ain't gonna happen. Seeing how KHI has basically ignored the clutch basket issue and has refused over half of the claims, made DURING the warranty period, how would one believe KHI would react to a claim made after the warranty had expired?
To compare CKM/KMC's extended warranty coverage to that of an automobile is not really fair. There are many levels and versions of extended warranties available for automobiles. Many are not even underwritten by the manufacturer. When we purchased our new company truck, Dailmer-Chrysler gave it a standard warranty and a 7/70 on the powertrain. We spent an additional $1200 to get a 7/70 on all non-wear items beyond the powertrain. DC offered several different levels, so we had to do a little research to make sure that we got exactly what we were looking for. Like getting an extended warranty for my bikes, it was from lessons learned from previous trucks our company has owned, that prompted me not only to get an extended warranty, but to make sure that I was well aware of what it covered and who was underwriting it.
P.S. As for the bike manufacturer's 12mo/12,000mi warranty!! When are they gonna move into the 21st century. We all know it's ridiculous.
Again, this is equally up for debate. If we were talking about Nomads, Road Stars and Gold Wings (which does have a longer warranty), that would be one thing. We are not. We are talking about sportbikes. Sure, I'd love to have a 4 year/unlimited mileage warranty come with every sportbike I would ever buy, but it would be naive to think that this will ever happen. On one hand, we demand as consumers a bike that revs higher then a F1 car, has a similar power to weight ratio and the we expect them to warranty it like a Peterbuilt. Well, you can have one or the other, but you'll never get both. Not unless you pay for it.
Like I have said from the beginning, it sucks what happened to Ray. From everything I have read, he has done nothing to warrant such a failure. A failure of a part, even in a sportbike, should last for 100,000 miles. Unfortunately, KHI does not offer additional mileage/time coverage on certain components in their standard warranty. Unlike many other forums who's members generally feel a extended warranty is a waste of money, that is not a sentiment you'll generally find here. As a matter of fact, the members here had sought out a Kawasaki dealer who was willing to offer the official KMC extended warranty at basically dealer's cost. Being underwritten by KMC, any Kawasaki dealer in the U.S. is expected to honor any claim made against it. You do NOT have to get the KMC extended warranty from the same dealer that will be doing any servicing on the bike.
These have all been lessons that many of us have learned by having experiences very similar to Ray's. It is also something that has been discussed both here and at LA Busas for years. If one choose to ignore or was unaware... so be it. It does not change one simple business fact. The failure occurred after the coverage of the standard warranty had expired. Plain and simple. No trash talk. No name calling. In the business world, it's called "something for nothing". Sure it happens when a vendor will give samples or not charge freight, but basically, KHI and CKM owes him nothing. When weighing the good PR versus the potential future litigation, the good PR will loose everytime. It is not the way we wish it was, but most of us have learned to accept it and protect ourselves by other means. Are we caving in to the "evil" manufacturers? Well, if it was something that was radically different then the way automobile or just about any other manufacturer conducts business, I would say, yes.
Seeing as how the extended coverage offered by Kawasaki has no mileage limit, basically mirrors the standard warranty in what it covers, can be purchased for less then $400 and it's availability is not only brought to our attention when we purchased the bike and by a mailing shortly there after, but KMC goes one step further and attempts to again notify us of it's availability short before the standard warranty expires... I would say that it is BETTER then what one could call the "industry norm"
I have read and through regularly rechecking the various threads at Dale's and the Sportbike.com forums, feel that I am well aware of all the circumstances (and pictures) that have been presented. One can wish in one hand and spit in the other and we all know which one will fill up first. I hate to hear this happening to ANYONE. Which forum the choose to post or even what they choose to ride is of no issue here. It is not a "Us vs. Them" thing or attitude. To think of it as such would not only be insulting to me personally, but would be ignorantly childish.
nedragr, I sincerely hope that CKM does offer to assist in the repair of Ray's bike. From everything I have read, he is indeed a stand up guy and has done everything practically possible to prevent such a failure. I do wish the best for him. My disappoint is solely aimed at those that feel that this is a "must do or fuck you" towards CKM and KHI. Because, this just encourages others to make such claims without having a fraction of the creditability of Ray or the legitimacy of his request. It is because of that very reason of such non-creditable and non-legitimate claims that have been made in the past, one can fairly well rest assured that they will not address this one either. The is sad and for the most part, wrong. But thanks to the MF'ers before us that have demanded something for nothing, good and honest folks like Ray get screwed.
This being a "Known Problem" for most of us here, we realize that our only recourse in protecting ourselves is simply shelling out the extra bucks for that extended warranty. It's not the way we would want it to be, but that is the way it is and no amount of threats or demands will change it. Now if you figure out a way to get Suzuki to repair catastrophic failures under a current warranty, please let me know how you did it.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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motorcycleboy
Expert Class
Posts: 102
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posted July 31, 2003 07:43 PM
quote:
I'm in total agreement. Bad luck, yes. Defect or "known problem", no. In fact, this is a perfect example of the kind of BS that seems to turn into "known facts". In the case of the ZX-11, THOUSANDS of people think there is an oiling problem or bearing problem with zx-11's. Isn't-never was. There is an oil QUANTITY problem in that you have to keep it in spec. and over spec. for certain types of use. I really know of no main bearing problems (without an associated rod bearing failure first due to oil starvation) on either engine. I would like to believe that from my experience in the U.S. this could be done as a goodwill cost share if properly handled (which public threats on the net is NOT). Bottom line is the warranty is expired. Warranties are like insurance policies. If you die a week after your life insurance expires-no bucks, period.
Doug
With all due respect Doug, I beg to differ.
This is a 1999 zx-11 with 16,900 miles on it that I have known and been associated with since new.
http://www.zx-12r.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17057&highlight=bearing
The motor has ALWAYS had the oil changed at 2k miles and filled with the amount of oil per Kawasakis specs.
The bike was not a wheelie bike. It did see expected acceleration.
I did the shims and oil one year ago personally. Everything looked great.
The first point I will bring up is that the number 1 & 2 mains looked great. Number 4 was marginal and number 3 looked like it was dragged through a meat grinder.
All things being the same, if there was a low oil situation ALL the mains would have equal damage UNLESS there was an oiling deficiency, yes?.
This was not the case with this bike.
The zx-11 has a well known #3 oiling problem, and I am curious why you are saying it doesn't. In fact, more than one aftermarket supplier offers a modified oil pan and oiler kit to take care of the problem.
I am not trying to start an argument here, but I feel the need to speak on this one bro.
- Blitz
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FTP - File Transfer Protocol.
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted July 31, 2003 07:59 PM
For whatever it's worth. I bought a 1996 ZX11, in the crate. Broke in by the book, oil changed, valves adjusted per recommended intervals. Rode extremely hard for 32,000 miles before selling. Never one single problem. Still ran like brand new when sold. What known problems???.....
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 31, 2003 09:43 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 31 Jul 2003 22:45
OK motorcycleboy, I've been through this ad infinitem but I'll give you the short version.. You are a perfect example. " the ZX-11 has a well known oiling problem ........."
The condition you are describing on the mains is usually contamination. It is not relevant to the "well known problem". The rods fail first even though they are "downstream" of the mains because they experience a much higher unit load. What people don't realize is how much oil the ZX-11 holds up in the head. At sustained higher rpm (above 7 or so) it can be as much as 2 liters. The only way the oil can return is the cam chain tower and it's not enough. There is very little oil crossflow in the head. It all has to get over to the right side and down.
Now the engine holds 3.45 liters at the middle of the window. If you make a pretty good blast for a while you end up with 1.5 liters in the sump if your level is correct .
Let your oil get just a little low and maybe you got only 1 liter in the sump and here's the failure scenario:
1.Oil level in the sump is marginal.
2. a rapid acceleration OR DECELLERATION causes the lower level in the sump to momentarily move away from the pickup.
3. Pickup gets a slug of air.
4. Slug of air goes right past the main and straight to the #3 rod bearing causing a momentary dry spot and the bearing scuffs slightly.
5. This may happen a few times, causing the bearing to have some metal to metal contact.
6. Ultimately at some time in the future this metal to metal contact overheats the bearing, it melts, grabs the rod and if you're lucky you get it stopped before it saws the case in half and oils the crap out of the tire.
I'm very familiar with this tire oiling experience having had it happen at 198 mph in 6th. (I was "experimenting" with lower oil levels to get that extra 1/2 horse were all looking for).
This isn't opinion, this is fact determined through careful testing with clear return lines in the head, multiple pressure gauges, and carefully measured oil quantities.
Anecdotal proof is that in race car applications where lateral g-loads would unport the pump and blow a rod out in 2 or 3 laps, the switch to a dry sump that supplied the pump pickup with an uninterrupted supply of oil absolutely eliminated the problem allowing ZX-11 engines to run many hundreds of race laps without a bearing failure.
Simply put, keep 3.5 or 4 quarts in a ZX-11 motorcycle and it won't break. Pretty much ever.
Doug
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