RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted May 08, 2003 06:56 AM
I only posted these as a reference, not for debate or "prove" anything.
  
|
deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
|
posted May 08, 2003 08:33 AM
I have a question - if these maps posted above were made without a PC-IIIr "tune", can we do the same thing WITH PC-IIIr's fully tuned? I think that will be a more realistic test of what you can achieve with each pipe. My thinking is that some pipes may work better with stock maps, but may not work as well if you try to optimize air/fuel/timing??
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted May 08, 2003 09:31 AM
Koz, words to live by! Specially about women, because unlike Oil and the other things you mentioned, there are a lot of women you cannot live with 
Death Pulse I personally thought he was showing the Natural Performance of how good the Silver Bike was specially compared to My Bike which I am getting about 90+% of all I will ever get out of it and he has not started yet. From what I have seen, that bike is about the best stock Bike I have ever seen!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
Koz
Expert Class
Posts: 304
|
posted May 08, 2003 10:26 AM
Vincent,
From what I read , the silver bike was getting 171hp with just a Hindle pipe. If that bike is getting that hp PURE stock, that bike sould be in the motorcyce hall of fame. I don't believe a stock 12, straight from Kawasaki, can make 171hp, SORRY!
Koz
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted May 08, 2003 10:38 AM
Now you know why I was calling the Bike a Journalist Bike! O think it is possible and I know all of the parties involved! My guess is that this may be one of the Bikes the Journalist rode and tested. Bergie Got it crashed!. Temember, they got as high as 167 HP and never broken in fully! 3 or 4 more HP Is not out of the question! (On a blue printed bike that is good & Stock from Kawasaki.
Anyone here believe that Kawasaki just goes into a storage place and picks out a bike for the magazines to test??
|
deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
|
posted May 08, 2003 01:09 PM
Hey - no matter what you believe, I'd like to know what the differences are from that bike to mine (which dyno's at 175 HP with a Muzzy full Ti and a PC-iiir ) 
|
kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
|
posted May 08, 2003 01:39 PM
I'd have to see a 10hp diff. in person to believe it...(trying NOT to start or continue debate!!! )...
When MAPPED PROPERLY...I would have a VERY hard time believing that ANY PIPE ("well known brands" anyway) would make 10 more OR LESS than all others...
Just my 2-cnts 
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted May 08, 2003 03:51 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 8 May 2003 16:55
I understand! No problem! I also know with the wrong map, the Stepped Hindle only made 2 HP more. Then I got Lawson's map and another 8! I had the akra on for over 1 year and the Best I ever got with the Bear Stacks was 167+ and the bike made 152 stock so I was thinking 12 is not bad from a Pipe and 3 from the stacks. Then Hindle said he made 5 to 7 more and I feel that I made 7 more with the pipe and almost 3 more (for a total of 5.5) with the Bear stacksAll I know is what the machine printed out and the fact that I had been on 3 different machines and never made over 167+ with the Akra and now on 4 different machines I have made a low of 177 and a High of 183. a 5 HP Spread. SO if you take the Low of 177 and the High of the Akra 167, See what I mean!
Supposed I said I got 15 more and used the High numbers or the Low numbers of 163 and 177 which is 14 more. I just cannot figure anyway around what happened! I also have not seen anyone that switched that did not make close to 5 HP more than what they had already! Simple, with my mouth as big as it is and all of the people that have bought that pipe, don't you know that by now, some one would be eating my lunch for me if "ANYONE" had not made more power!! And everyone here would also know about it! That is the long and the short of it! The truth be told, I was really pissed that I could not afford to keep both Pipes because I will never have anything that is made nicer than the Akrapovic Period!
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted May 08, 2003 03:52 PM
I understand! No problem! I also know with the wrong map, the Stepped Hindle only made 2 HP more. Then I got Lawson's map and another 8! I had the akra on for over 1 year and the Best I ever got with the Bear Stacks was 167+ and the bike made 152 stock so I was thinking 12 is not bad from a Pipe and 3 from the stacks. Then Hindle said he made 5 to 7 more and I feel that I made 7 more with the pipe and almost 3 more (for a total of 5.5) with the Bear stacksAll I know is what the machine printed out and the fact that I had been on 3 different m
|
Zhooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
|
posted May 08, 2003 04:04 PM
Edited By: Zhooligan on 8 May 2003 17:05
kcadby I can vouch for my own bike personally. I have had the chance on my own dynojet 250 to install and map a Hindle, Muzzy, TiForce and Akro on the bike with everything else being the same. And they all make within 3 hp of each other. They all get there a little differently, have slightly different midrange, and bottom end, some idle better then others, etc. I chose my TiForce because I like it's riding personality the best. But I have not seen enough of a difference to declare a clear winner.
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 08, 2003 05:34 PM
I think you have said it all, Z.
IMHO, what the "numbers" are at 10K RPMs is for the most part, unimportant. Few of us spend a whole lot of time in that range anyway. At least in the case of us "twisty" guys.
Also, the appearance or "craftsmanship" of the pipe's welds are hardly an kind indicator of it's abilities. To me, this aspect is kind moot for two reasons. I don't normally ride around with my lower fairing off the bike and after the installation, I don't spend a lot of time looking at the "craftsmanship" of the welds. If it does what I expect of it, I could care less what it looks like under my fairings.
Everyone can share either horror or satisfied stories of the fit or performance on just about any brand.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted May 08, 2003 06:21 PM
Believe whatever you want. The silver bike made 171 rwhp 100% BONE STOCK. On the same dyno another stock ZX12R makes 153~158rwhp.
Then this silver bike with Muzzys pipe made 176ish, and with the Hindle 181rwhp. The bike as ZERO MODS aside from the Hindle pipe. It made 15hp more than my green bike made with a Muzzys pipe.
Personally I don't give a flying #$% what anyone believes, the reason I posted it is because I was freaking amazed! And it's only there to share, not debate, boast, or complain about.
If you want to bring your bike this dyno and compare, be my guest. Call Ripley's or Guiness, but the bike makes what it makes! I've got $500 cash to anyone who wants to bet otherwise.
|
kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
|
posted May 08, 2003 06:44 PM
I truly wasn't debating what anyone said...I just can't swallow that any pipe is actually THAT much better (10hp) than "all the others" when mapped right (for each pipe)...
What Z said sounds...on the mark to me...3hp+ or - sounds more realistic to me...
Believe me when I tell you Bergie that...it sounds like that Silver bike IS special
I've only seen 2-ZX12s so far that didn't hit 170+ piped and mapped...
ONE OF THEM...had that suppose-ed "killer" Serpent pipes on it!?!?!?
Another ZX12 with the Serpent pipe made the "average 172+Hp"...
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted May 08, 2003 07:05 PM
ps that 171 chart is with the catalyst in the pipe! we didn't touch it!
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 08, 2003 09:12 PM
Yeah, Bergie... I swear I in no way doubt or question your results. I assue you that my "comments" (excluding my "questions" post) were not directed towards you.
I also in no way have see as many 12Rs dyno'ed as you have. At best, I've seen maybe 15 or so. On the average, bone stock, 152~157 was the "norm" and bikes with a pipe, PCIII, filters and maybe an advancer, they were usually around 175~181. I've even seen severalget in the 182-183 range (i.e. Dave's very flat lined 182.5 on his '02 w/Muzzy and Harry's 182+ on his old '00 w/Akro)
There are always some "exceptions" and your silver streak would very much so quailify. Especially in a "bone stock" configuration. After all, Dave's lines are almost identical to yours going from 5K to 10K, yet that's with the addition of a PCIII, filters and a Muzzy advancer (I believe) versus yours just having a pipe.
In other words, I feel that both yours and Dave's bikes have lines, that for now, I can only wish for. Hopefully, after the remap next week, I too can enjoy life without my 5K to 6K flat spot. I could really care less if I don't get a single additional HP, just as long as the lines are "dip free".
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted May 09, 2003 07:16 AM
Truth be told bergie was even more surprized than he lets on. We had been talking that day and late that evening he calls me with the news! Now I was also amazed, but knowing the Dyno operator I knew that it was the truth! Again I say Bike Magazine motorcycle!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted May 09, 2003 08:05 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 9 May 2003 09:06
Vincent,
Just what is it that you think makes a "bike magazine motorcycle"? If you can describe these tricks, I think we'd all like to do them to our otherwise inferior "standard" bikes!
Doug
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted May 09, 2003 11:40 AM
Good Question. Just like when I raced a Yamaha TZ 250 and needed cylinders, (The smallest being 000 & 000) I knew the parts people in Atlanta and would call them and they would look through at least 50 to 100 cylinders and send me ones that were 000 & 001, or 001 & 002. If course Kel Carrurters got all 000 & 000 Cylinders!
Using this example that all mechanical parts are not equal and all Bikes are not equal, My strongest feeling is that either Kawasaki has special hand assembled blue printed bikes they goe to the journalist or take a lot of 50 assembled bikes and test them and give the Journalist only the best ones. Shall we say bikes made on Wednesday
Somehow, I just do not feel that the factory would give the people that plan to test the Hell out of them a bike that they know nothing about! I remember the HP Figures on the ZX11, I never saw one bike that made the HP that several Magazines got out of them! Ae you saying that kawasaki would send an "Unknown" quality to represent them to the Public? I would feel that they are not Naive and have only the best (Like Muzzys) represent them vs me or Harry ZX12! I also looked at the "Smaller" than a Jockey riders at Atlanta. You know who I am talking about he must not weigh more than 95 pounds and maybe 5 feet tall to ride the best bike they can prepare for him!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
Zhooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
|
posted May 09, 2003 03:03 PM
Velasco tells stories about how they would go to the assembly line and measure heads, pistons, valves, rods, camshafts, etc. as they came down the line and hand pick through thousands of parts to come up with balanced and match parts, the biggest valve pockets, etc etc.
Essentially finding the perfect parts not just those in the range of tolerance.
On a local level we have had 4 or 5 R6's apart at one time. We have been pretty successful in coming up with a combination of the parts resulting in matched (weight) pistons and rods, picked the best head etc. and seen a horsepower inrease out of that engine tht couldn't be matched by anyother supersport legal 600. Certainly if you have the time and enough pieces to pick through you can come up with a good combination!
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted May 09, 2003 04:03 PM
Zhoo, that is exactly what I am talking about! Just like with the cylinders and never finding the 000 / 000 set! I saw them, usually on the factory bikes! I never saw 023 and 040 over there!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
Zhooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
|
posted May 09, 2003 04:15 PM
That was probably all just a coincidence Vincent. You know the factory teams just go right down to the locaal dealer and pick their parts off of the same shelf as the privateers!
I have always been a big supporter of the idea that you should be able to buy any one of the podium bikes for a specified price of somehting like 40% over suggested manufactures price. And the AMA or sanctioning body would be responsible to insure you got the bike you bought and the factory would have to make parts available for your new bike.
It would make the factories have to compete at a level closer to the privateers and more racing technology would find it's way to the public sooner. A little more obtanium instead of unobtaneum for regular folks!
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC