Otis
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posted April 17, 2003 09:55 AM
Another Democrat/Liberal finally gets it.
Commentary: Why a Liberal Supports Bush's War
Posted April 10, 2003
By Jeffrey Scott Shapiro
Two years ago I voted for Vice President Al Gore in the 2000 presidential election. Upon George W. Bush's ascension into the White House, I found myself furious with him and vowed I would do whatever I could to campaign for the next future Democratic presidential candidate in 2004.
Today, I am convinced that Bush may go down in history as one of America's greatest presidents.
There's an old saying - a man doesn't make history - history makes the man. Nothing could be truer in the presidency of George W. Bush. When our enemies struck us in the heart and soul of our nation, we mourned. And when we realized that nearly 3000 of our fellow American brothers and sisters were murdered, we cried.
But when our president set foot upon the crumbled steel and shattered glass of the World Trade Center, he reminded us of our greatness and we cheered. It was at that moment, that this young Texas governor truly became the President of the United States and won the mandate and the hearts of the American people.
In the wake of Sept. 11, only one country had the audacity not to lower its embassy flag to half-mast. Expressing no sense of compassion, offering no words of support, Iraq flew its flag high and mighty as it's black and white stripes and emboldened green stars waved proudly in the New York City wind.
Since Sept. 11, the president has tried to make a case to the American people that our nation must remove Saddam Hussein from power. Although he convinced Congress, he failed to win the popular momentum of the American people and the world community. Forced to contend with an ineffective United Nations that refused to enforce its own resolutions, the president moved forward with the support of only a few democratic allies.
Now, recent polls show that America's feelings on the war have changed. In fact, most television news networks now report that over 75 percent of the nation supports the war. Perhaps the proof that the president was right came when the first Iraqi citizens encountering U.S. Marines refused to fire guns but instead threw up their hands and cheered for America.
Yet despite this wave of happiness and relief sweeping through southern Iraq, my fellow liberal Democrats still contend the war is wrong. They argue that the liberation of Iraq is unjustified. Street protesters cry out that our aim is to seize oil instead of freeing innocent people who have suffered under the iron rule of a sadistic dictator.
Allow me to respond: How could you? How could you be so cowardly? How can you portray yourselves as the champions of human rights yet lack the courage to do anything about it? Are you so afraid of conflict that you lack the conviction to stand before the world and denounce evil even when it exists in its most pure form? Do you not see the torture and heartbreak of a nation in despair? Do you care? Can you not put party politics aside and support our president in this unified struggle for freedom?
According to the Foreign & Commonwealth Office of London report on Saddam Hussein's Crimes and Human Rights Abuses, the Iraqi regime has openly engaged in state-licensed rape, acid baths, electric shock, eye gouging, the piercing of hands with electric drills and mock executions. Families whose members betray Saddam are forced to watch their sisters, daughters and wives raped repeatedly by soldiers whose professional job is to "violate a woman's honor." Those who openly condemn Saddam Hussein have their tongues cut from their mouths so they can never speak again.
Citizens held captive in the Mahjar prison in Baghdad are beaten twice a day and women are regularly raped by their guards. Those locked in the prison's underground are kept in rows of rectangular steel boxes roughly the size of a coffin until they either confess or die. The boxes are opened only for one hour a day and prisoners are fed only liquids to stay alive.
The human rights abuses perpetuated by Saddam Hussein and his regime go beyond the pale of cruelty. They are inhumane, incomprehensible and criminal. How can we, as Americans let such cruelty stand? Should we cower away at the fear of losing troops and surrender our resolve because we are without a quick and painless victory?
Think for a moment what America would be like today if President Lincoln had hesitated to send Union troops to free the slaves in the south. The Civil War was long and harsh, costing our nation the lives of hundreds of thousands. Yet, by challenging the Confederacy, Lincoln completed the next stage of the American Revolution and ended the diabolical institution of slavery.
I can think of no other place more sacred in this country than the temple we call the Lincoln Memorial. I will never forget how I felt as a child when I first gazed up at the marble frame of President Lincoln as he sat silently on his throne. It was a spiritual feeling I had never felt before in my life and it is something that I will never forget.
Although slavery has been abolished in America it still exists in many dark corners of the globe. Iraq is one of those places.
In the wake of Iraq's misery, one man rose above all others and said there would be no more. Many people listened to the cries of human rights organizations across the globe, but only one man did anything about it. Like President Lincoln before him, one man put the cause of freedom above himself and his political career. One man chose to liberate the people of Iraq when the world condemned him for it. One man initiated the next frontier of the American Revolution because he knew that revolution will not be over until every human being on this planet is free.
War is a necessary function of freedom. Those who enslave others must be forced to step down from their despotic positions of power. They will not simply relinquish it. Although it was unpopular to do so, President Bush had the heart to do the right thing. He took action. He sent troops to free innocent people. He knew what it was to truly love humanity, and for that, the president has my admiration and respect. More importantly, he now has my vote.
Jeffrey Scott Shapiro is an investigative reporter who covered the Sept. 11 attacks in New York City.
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Zhooligan
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posted April 17, 2003 10:49 AM
Thanks Otis.
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deathpulse
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posted April 17, 2003 11:05 AM
FANTASTIC read. Vigilance is the price of freedom.
Now if only we could relax the liberal nazi's in NJ, maybe I could get a carry permit for my handguns! 
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VincentHill
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posted April 17, 2003 01:25 PM
They have now laid off 40 people here, 20 was not enough! This has not happened since 1989 and 1990 When the other Bush was in Office. Yes The Country is in Great shape and while we are spending more money that ever on the war and reconstruction, let us see how many jobs are created when he gets the tax cut passed to give his friends another 1/2 Trillion dollars. That is how we all should live our lives. Go out and buy everything we can and work one day less per week to pay for it. I rather be a "Tax and Spend Liberal" than a "Borrow & Spend" Conservative! (Borrowing is what the National Debt is period)
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Dino
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posted April 17, 2003 04:51 PM
Vince, what we need is hundreds more "social programs." That'll fix the economy up! 
Good read Otis!
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Zhooligan
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posted April 17, 2003 05:09 PM
There is really a simple answer to your dilema Vincent. If every single american in this country paid taxes there would be plenty to go around. Instead a small group of people are suposed to pay the taxes for everyone else.
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CrotchRocket
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posted April 17, 2003 05:51 PM
I dont call this war, its the U.S. being the Big Brother to the World!!!...Sometimes you have to beat up the little brother, after they have been taking advantage of you!!!
After the President sets up Iraq, I say it's time for him to consentrate and get congress to figure out how to Help the People that live here!!!...As in cuting back on foreign aid, not to cut back on domestic aid and make the Quality of Life Better for the USA!!!...ENOUGH SAID!!!
CrotchRocket
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tbbt
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posted April 17, 2003 06:52 PM
 Edited By: tbbt on 17 Apr 2003 19:59
quote:
They have now laid off 40 people here, 20 was not enough! This has not happened since 1989 and 1990 When the other Bush was in Office. Yes The Country is in Great shape and while we are spending more money that ever on the war and reconstruction, let us see how many jobs are created when he gets the tax cut passed to give his friends another 1/2 Trillion dollars. That is how we all should live our lives. Go out and buy everything we can and work one day less per week to pay for it. I rather be a "Tax and Spend Liberal" than a "Borrow & Spend" Conservative! (Borrowing is what the National Debt is period)
You know, I've been laid-off way longer than anybody would care to be. I don't imagine anybody is hurting for work anymore than I am. But that being said, you won't see me casting blame for my position (and the state of this economy) on this president.
When it comes to the economy, decisions will obviously have to be made. The question is, will they be the Easy Wrong ones or the Hard Right ones? Although the Easy Wrong ones may be politically expedient and tend to placate the American masses that have the "McDonalds - we want immediate satisfaction" mentality, I tend to believe that the Hard Right ones will do the most good in the long run (even when they don't seem to help much in the near term). When it comes to making decisions, I believe this president will make the right ones, even at the expense of his own political capital (as we have just seen him do recently).
I hate hearing about how taxes are supposedly for giving rich friends another 1/2 trillion dollars. I've never been a big fan of class warfare and wealth redistribution arguments. I'll pick capitalism over socialism anytime. In this country the tax code is progressive (a fact that in itself is closer to socialism than I care to be). So, with that being the case, so must be tax cuts. Those that make the most money pay the most taxes (disproportionately so - the top 50% or wage earners pay 96% of the taxes) in this country. It stands to reason then that those that pay the most in taxes will save the most in any cut. If I don't pay much in taxes, then I can't expect to save much from a tax cut when it comes about. Tax cuts in this country become even more progressive by the fact that the largest cuts as a percentage go to the lower income brackets and smallest cuts as a percentage goes to the higher income brackets (a political reality in terms of being the only way to get tax cuts passed). So in this country if you pay the least in taxes you get the most, as a percentage of any tax break.
Will the rich get richer as a result of tax cut? All I can say is - is that I hope so since the rich tend to reinvest their wealth vs. hording money in bank vaults like in the old Ritchie Rich cartoons. You won't find any class envy with me. And since this is America, I would like to think that the possibility still exist that I could become rich if it ever should become important to me.
Instead of fuming because of class envy and dreaming about wealth redistribution, I prefer to look at things differently. I'm all for the rich getting richer.
There is one thing true about times when the rich are getting richer, and companies are making more money - and that is that I have work, job security is better, and wages improve. When the rich, and companies start to lose money, I lose work, job security sucks, and those that still have work either have stagnate wages, or wages that go down.
Socialism has one undeniable result. Instead of a small percentage of the population being poor, with socialism everybody is poor and only a select handful have any power or wealth (there are those in Washington that would very much like to end up being that select few).
So, when I hear the words "Tax and Spend Liberal" I translate that as being a Wealth Redistributionist, or if you will, a Socialist.
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Ballisticzx12r
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posted April 17, 2003 07:17 PM
My Two Cent's
Layoffs happen because people place thenmselves in jobs where performance, success, and orginalism (I made that word up) are lacking. I have never had a job in my life that gaurenteed me any type of income, that would have allowed me to keep my head above water. Since I am better then the other people trying to do the same job I do, I make more money and have a better level of life. Take yourself out of the status quo, enjoy and truly love your job then the word "layoff" is not an option.
Barto
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slug
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posted April 17, 2003 07:28 PM
what is happenning here?
let's look at it.
what did nafta do?
now that companies can move operations to mexico without financial penalties, they are doing so in increasing numbers, in order to reduce the costs of production. entire assembly operations go south every day.
i know, because my job is headed that way as well. i am searching for a new one before my position is no longer available.
this economy is all the fault of the "borrow & spend" republicans. i submit that is not entirely correct. tax & spend as well, it too shares some blame.
but the biggest blame is the abuse of cheaper markets of workers. this in itself is and WILL ruin the american economy.
we build motors for air conditioners, pools, and spas. among others, but mainly those items.
it is true fact that about half the people in the USA do not pay tax because they do not make enough money to do so.
every year this number grows.
moving assembly lines to mexico, it is a good cost cutting measure today and next week. but 5 years from now, who will be able to afford air conditioners, or pools, or spas? where will the market go then?
we are cutting our own throats inthe name of hte bottom line. because every line we move to mexico, is more wealth we are transferring to mexico, and from the people of our own country. eventually, we will not be able to afford the basics.
the economy right now cannot be attributed to ANY particular party or group. it is a general symptom of the current society that is bred of the promise of a free-ride and the quick buck. oooh i bumped my head, let me sue for damages. and they win "oh the insurance companies have way too much money, hey they can afford it"
what these MORONS don't understand, WHERE in the world did that money come from??
"oh, i'll sign up for unemployment and get free money for the govt while i pretend to job search"
that program reeks. why should i expect you hard working people to be forced to pay for me to NOT work???? wtf? it isn't 'free' money, it is ALLL moeny that you and i and your friends and neighbors are forced to give up.
anyone that thinks the govt is there to provide a free ride, should NOT be allowed to vote. anyone who does NOTHING to contribute to the govt funding, should not vote. they should have NO say in how that money gets used, since they add nothing.
is that harsh? perhaps. is it realistic? not in this "gimme gimme i want": society.
ever since someone came up with the idea of forcing people to pay to provide for others, it has been forced on just about EVERY society by those same do-gooders.
when the government was given the power to forcibly take money from the citizens, they stopped being citizens and became slaves.
face it, you work for your money, and then are forced to give up part of your earnings to someone with no say. if you don't they threaten you and send you to jail. this is slavery.
alas, it is how things are right now though. every person that is on the public dole, is another person who will vote vehemently to maintain that free handout. it is another person who will depend on the government for everything.
there are places in the world that use that same ideology, the government is all powerful and is relied on for everything. the government is the end-all for everything. it is the provider, and the taker-away.
sound familiar?
it is proven statistical fact that tax cuts, no matter how minor they may seem, have preceded improved economic conditions. the rise in the GNP has always offset the tax cuts, and tax revenues also have risen, even with cuts in the rates. you can check the irs sites for the gnp and the tax revenues collected.
should the government have to be accountable and not borrow and overspend? of course. who is going to force the issue? apparently noone.
what IS going to happen will be a depression of unprecedented magnitude.
as the american companies move their operations overseas, fewer americans will have high paying jobs. fewer americans will pay taxes, and more will be on the public dole. fewer people will be able to afford the products made by the american companies, who will start to lose business and profits. they will cut jobs to make up for the losses, and further the spiral. as the number of taxpayers dwindles, the revenues WILL drop. eventually there well BE no source of income for the non-taxpayers, as the govt funds will no longer be sufficient to pay the employees, much less the leeches.
perhaps this is a bit ominous or pessimistic, but common sense dictates this course
the dot-bomb companies of the late 90s created a big wakeup call. they traded in nothing of substance, it was all information and intangibles. they got rich quick, with little or no effort. and as quickly, went the way of the dodo. the force of all these 24hr ventures crashing at once made a huge mess of things. a mess we are STILL dealing with to this day as the markets and the economy recovers and corrects for this mess. a fad made a mess.
in reality, we probably aren't far off the mark of what steady growth would have netted us if it wasn't for the record breaking growth in the 90s due to the internet explosion. but since it was so high, and dropped sharply again, it feels particularly bad now. even though had we gons lwoly and surely, we would likely be in same place, just with positive outlook.
but that doesn't scare me as much as the huge movement of technical jobs out of the usa. it doesn't scare me as much as the growing financial dependence of more and more americans on the us govt, and nowhere near does it scare me as much as what will happen when the american consumer is but a memory of the distant past.
before welfare, before unemployment, what did people do? how did they survice those several hundred years from the start of colonization of hte americas? what did they do when they had 'bad luck' or poor choices?
true charity is what happenned. people giving for no other reason than to give. families helping their own. a lost art nowadays. heck families now are as likely to sue and degrade each other.
yes there is still true charity around, but there is also forced 'charity' in our govt programs. govt is NOT there to redistribute wealth. but it has been misused to do exactly that.
my brother got called a fool, because he refused to sign for unemployment. he has truck payments, he has rent, he has to eat still, but he also planned ahead a bit. he also has a family that is supportive, he can move in here and stay until job search completed if need be. he still has to live, but he has no desire to make someone give up their hard earned money to support him while he is out of work.
the argument made was, well youpaid in to it by paying taxes, why not take advantage of it?
and take advantage is the exact problem, taking advantage of someone else's work and effort.
they then asked, hey just use it while you need it, then you can vote however you feel.
but the response to that query, how can i deny someone else that opportunity that i took?
it would be hipocritical.
as far as "well family is one thing what about someone that has no family?"
to that same end, i have offered several people the ability to stay here while jobhunting. to me, friends are as much family as my blood relatives.
if someone truly has no family, or friends, then why should people he/she has shunned/scorned/pissed off be forced to pay for him to not work?
maybe i am mean, maybe i am rude, maybe i am hateful. but i dont expect anyone else to pay my way through life. i don't want you to work, and be forced to give up your earnings so i can not work. i don't want to force someone to support me whom i have pissed off or told to pack sand. it aint right.
it isn't right to be told to pay for something you don't need or want, or beleive to be right.
as for the rest of it, i could care less if you like or hate liberals, or conservatives. society is ill, it is ill at the basic fundamental block. at the heart of society is the family. the destructuring of the family has IMHO caused much of the financial and humanitarian woe we have to deal with nowadays.
i hope it gets better, but fear it can't until it gets MUCH worse.
  
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Ballisticzx12r
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posted April 17, 2003 07:37 PM
I'm sorry but I didn't have the time or the wherewithall to really read your post. Call me an asshole, you would be true. But in light of the events of the world, I just don't care. My store is having a banner fucking year... Sales are up and we are making BISNAK (big money). I never like to see anyone hurt, I just think the sheep always get fucked. Be a leader not a follower and you write your picture.
Barto
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tbbt
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posted April 17, 2003 08:46 PM
What the f*ck?
quote:
Layoffs happen because people place thenmselves in jobs where performance, success, and orginalism (I made that word up) are lacking.
What a stupid f*cking comment! What a gross generalization!
I was an Electrical Engineer. Generally speaking, engineering requires, among other things, performance, success, and "originalism".
Some people have it good right now. I'm glad for them. But to say that people always only have themselves to blame for there own layoff is a crock of shit. I won't say that personal performance isn't ever a factor, but it sure as hell isn't only one either.
Personally, I worked for a company that was more suceptable to economic conditions than most. When the enconomy was good, clients were spending money, and engineers were needed to do projects. When the enconomy went south, client's pocket books clammed up resulting in fewer engineers being needed. It was as simple as that. No projects - then people got to go.
There are many criteria used in determining who gets the axe. Sometimes seniority is a leading factor. The round I got hit in, I was the most junior engineer. The second most junior engineer got it that day as well.
quote:
I have never had a job in my life that gaurenteed me any type of income, that would have allowed me to keep my head above water. Since I am better then the other people trying to do the same job I do, I make more money and have a better level of life.
Well bully for you. I'm glad you are better than everbody else. I wonder how you perspective would be effected if no matter how good you thought your were and how well you thoght you did your job (above and beyond everybody else), you still found yourself thrown out on you ass some day...
As far as garantees - You've never heard me ask for any and I certainly knew the risk when I took the job at the company I worked for.
quote:
Take yourself out of the status quo, enjoy and truly love your job then the word "layoff" is not an option.
I'm not sure this is even worth commenting on... All I'll say is that Utopia doesn't exist....
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tbbt
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posted April 17, 2003 09:28 PM
Edited By: tbbt on 17 Apr 2003 23:50
quote:
what these MORONS don't understand, WHERE in the world did that money come from??
"oh, i'll sign up for unemployment and get free money for the govt while i pretend to job search"
that program reeks. why should i expect you hard working people to be forced to pay for me to NOT work???? wtf? it isn't 'free' money, it is ALLL moeny that you and i and your friends and neighbors are forced to give up.
anyone that thinks the govt is there to provide a free ride, should NOT be allowed to vote. anyone who does NOTHING to contribute to the govt funding, should not vote. they should have NO say in how that money gets used, since they add nothing.
Slug, I appreciate your sentiment, but you are bit off base. You seem to be confusing welfare with unemployment insurance.
According to the U.S. Department of Labor "In the majority of States, benefit funding is based solely on a tax imposed on employers. (Three (3) States require minimal employee contributions.)" That's right - Your employer pays the unemployment insurance that pays for your unemployment "benefits" should you become unemployed through no fault of your own.
Unemployment insurance paid by the employer is just another benefit to the employee. It's calculated into the employees compensation package amongst other things to include your base pay, pension benefits, health insurance etc. In a sense the employer isn't paying the unemployment benefit, it's the employee who pays for the insurance. The employer just takes the money that would otherwise be a part of the employee's base pay, and pays the insurance on the employees behalf. The same can be said for ones health insurance benefits.
quote:
my brother got called a fool, because he refused to sign for unemployment. he has truck payments, he has rent, he has to eat still, but he also planned ahead a bit. he also has a family that is supportive, he can move in here and stay until job search completed if need be. he still has to live, but he has no desire to make someone give up their hard earned money to support him while he is out of work.
the argument made was, well youpaid in to it by paying taxes, why not take advantage of it?
and take advantage is the exact problem, taking advantage of someone else's work and effort.
Perhaps your brother intentions were good, but they seem to be a bit naive. Again if he were to draw unemployment benefits, then he would be drawing from the unemployment insurance provided to him as part of his compensation. In essence those benefits were a part of his pay. He would not have been taking advantage of anybody else's work and effort, anymore that if he had made a claim on his auto insurance after being in an accident. If your brother endured undue hardship during his unemployment because he refused to draw on his unemployment insurance - well I guess he only has himself (and his naivety) to blame.
If you are insinuating that I'm some kind of free loading bum that is drawing unemployment payments on the backs of taxpayers, and that I'm not really trying to find work - Well than I have to say that you are an ignorant ass and that I take offense...!
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TedG
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posted April 17, 2003 09:49 PM
Edited By: TedG on 17 Apr 2003 22:51
After just cutting a 6 figure check to the IRS, I figure I have the right to comment. You all miss the point. The economy is all about consumer confidence. Period. If the people don't have confidence in the economy and the leaders, the economy turns to shit. People quit buying, they aren't sure that their job is secure, and that they may need to hang on to their cash. The moment that it came to light that we were getting an idiot for a president (Bush or Gore) , consumer confidence went out the window. Say what you will about Clinton, but that dude was dead smart, and admit it or not, people knew that when it came to running the country, they knew he would not do bad things to the economy. That is why during his tenure, the economy was rippin, low inflation, good growth, etc. Oh there are some that say it was a hangover from papa Bush, "read my lips, no new taxes", blew confidence out the window. Don't worry gents, as soon as Bush runs out of countries to go to war with, his rating will drop and he will do something stupid to kill confidence. But maybe since God made him president (his own words, although I think it was the Supreme court), God, will intervene and help the economy. 
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tbbt
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posted April 17, 2003 10:00 PM
quote:
After just cutting a 6 figure check to the IRS, I figure I have the right to comment. You all miss the point. The economy is all about consumer confidence. Period. If the people don't have confidence in the economy and the leaders, the economy turns to shit. People quit buying, they aren't sure that their job is secure, and that they may need to hang on to their cash. The moment that it came to light that we were getting an idiot for a president (Bush or Gore) , consumer confidence went out the window. Say what you will about Clinton, but that dude was dead smart, and admit it or not, people knew that when it came to running the country, they knew he would not do bad things to the economy. That is why during his tenure, the economy was rippin, low inflation, good growth, etc. Oh there are some that say it was a hangover from papa Bush, "read my lips, no new taxes", blew confidence out the window. Don't worry gents, as soon as Bush runs out of countries to go to war with, his rating will drop and he will do something stupid to kill confidence. But maybe since God made him president (his own words, although I think it was the Supreme court), God, will intervene and help the economy.
Many of your assertions are very debatable (and wrong in my opinion). But I can't say that I'm in the mood at the moment....
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TedG
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posted April 17, 2003 10:07 PM
Edited By: TedG on 17 Apr 2003 23:10
Oh yeah, as far as the war in Iraq, although I think Bush did the right thing. But WTF were they thinking would happen when you go in and invade a country and run off the government? One must be ready to protect irreplaceable treasures, have teams ready to restore power and water, and be ready to protect the people you are freeing. Bush and the boys failed miserably in that regard. Although they did have teams ready to put out the oil fires, wouldn't want to waste that SUV juice. When we invade, we must make sure that we understand what will happen. Oh here is a rich one, they are sending in the FBI. It is our responsibility, we took over and we need to put Iraq under our protection. Because the UN wont do shit.
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TedG
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posted April 17, 2003 10:15 PM
Oh yeah FUCK tax and spend. I need a tax break.
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Zhooligan
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posted April 17, 2003 10:33 PM
Edited By: Zhooligan on 17 Apr 2003 23:45
I have to tell you Ted if 1 single guy dies protecting some museum artifact (sp?) what a waste. Again here we go blaming someone other then the responsible party. The Government of Iraq knew what was going to happen, they could have protected the museums, they are responsible. And the Museum curaters who are the paid profesionals, responsible for the museum etc. are responsible. This is more of the same old crap trying to place blame on us.
Guess what, the truth is Saddam and his boys probably ripped the place off. Art is important, I own and appreciate a great deal of it. But the reality is Marines and soldiers do not owe their lives to protect Iraqi art. Baghdad is a huge sity where are the art lovers and responsible citizens at to protect it? If we had drove into town and blew the place up for fun I would be upset. The Taliban destroyed ancient statues because they were contrary to their religion. Where were the art lovers then?
And when the war is over we can concentrate on protection. The City has something like 5 million citizens in it. The citizens of Baghdad, the good Muslims, the cleric etc. need to take responsibilty and kick the thugs out of town. This is sounds like the shit we listen to in this country when we are blamed for the insanly high murder numbers in the ghettos and gang areas. It's called social responsibility. And presently in Baghdad, the so called civilized citizens need to step up. And it is not the responsibility for the soldier to be a cop for people he is at war with and being shot at.
No country in the history of the world has ever been as benevolent, helpful, merciful and charitble as the United States of America. The Soviets, Germans, Chineese, Japanese, and frankly Iraq, Iran etc. all have marched in destroyed, murdered, burned, raped, pilaged, and ruined the countries they have conquored. And because the United States of America has in a little over three weeks pretty much kicked Iraq's ass they are are bad guys because they have not restored Iraq to it's utopian social order? Lets not forget that most of the civilan casualties are a result of Iraq's own missles falling back onto it's people, car bombs set off by the Iragi's to make America look bad, and the power plants and other things were disabled by Iraq, not us.
I am constantly amazed at how many people have decided that war is some kind of neat and orderly thing. What a shock people have died, been hurt, buildings blown up, it's dirty and disorganized, and god forbid looters have hit the cities. I know lets do what the Chineese and Russians would do, lets machine gun their asses and stop it right now.
Our stabilization plan of Iraq should be based on a minimal cost of lives and resources of coalition forces. The people of Iraq, God Bless their hearts allowed Saddam and his boys to rise to power and exist. We destroyed his armies, the Republican guard etc. during the Gulf War and the citizens didn't have the courage to take him out then. So guess what it is uncomfortable. The cost of obtaining Freedom always iss They are in a sense paying a minimal price in comparison to what has occured in History. Do you think Germany would have preferred Iraqs minimal destruction versus their absolutely devestated country? Or perhaps the Iraqi's would like to talk with Japan? In both cases those same citizens allowed nut cases to run their country and paid the price.
And if you question our protection, you need only look at the fact that Turkey got the fuck out of Dodge, because they knew we meant what we said, the Kurds have stayed where they belong, Iran has ran their mouth but stayed where they belong. And Syria is about to understand what it like to have a smart bomb enema. We now have a shuttle flight to Syria from Baghdad Airport. We don't have to rely on Turkey or any other country looking for a hand out.
Enough ranting for now.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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tbbt
Expert Class
Posts: 114
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posted April 17, 2003 11:10 PM
Edited By: tbbt on 18 Apr 2003 00:11
Do they still teach civics/government in High School anymore?
Even if they do, it probably doesn't do any good. They probably don't teach anything of value anymore. Instead it's probably taught by a good liberal who teaches, amongst other dribble, why one should hate conservatives, why we should subjugate our national sovereignty to the U.N., and why we should impale our economy on the alter of the Kyoto Treaty.
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AKA: T^2
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 18, 2003 12:09 AM
yeah, but tbbt, do u honestly think the good conservatices would do any different? from what i'v seen over the years, any party is gonna spew similar amounts of bullshit and use similarly dirty tactics. it's not that liberals are scum, it's not that conservatives are scum, it's that people are scum, and both parties are made up of people. seems we forget that alot.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 18, 2003 02:43 AM
quote:
There is really a simple answer to your dilema Vincent. If every single american in this country paid taxes there would be plenty to go around. Instead a small group of people are suposed to pay the taxes for everyone else.
AMEN to every Word!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 18, 2003 02:45 AM
quote:
Vince, what we need is hundreds more "social programs." That'll fix the economy up!
Good read Otis!
We need to stop the Corporate Welfare Programs. I was always told that If you cannot fail, you cannot Suceed
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 18, 2003 02:52 AM
quote:
quote:
They have now laid off 40 people here, 20 was not enough! This has not happened since 1989 and 1990 When the other Bush was in Office. Yes The Country is in Great shape and while we are spending more money that ever on the war and reconstruction, let us see how many jobs are created when he gets the tax cut passed to give his friends another 1/2 Trillion dollars. That is how we all should live our lives. Go out and buy everything we can and work one day less per week to pay for it. I rather be a "Tax and Spend Liberal" than a "Borrow & Spend" Conservative! (Borrowing is what the National Debt is period)
You know, I've been laid-off way longer than anybody would care to be. I don't imagine anybody is hurting for work anymore than I am. But that being said, you won't see me casting blame for my position (and the state of this economy) on this president.
When it comes to the economy, decisions will obviously have to be made. The question is, will they be the Easy Wrong ones or the Hard Right ones? Although the Easy Wrong ones may be politically expedient and tend to placate the American masses that have the "McDonalds - we want immediate satisfaction" mentality, I tend to believe that the Hard Right ones will do the most good in the long run (even when they don't seem to help much in the near term). When it comes to making decisions, I believe this president will make the right ones, even at the expense of his own political capital (as we have just seen him do recently).
I hate hearing about how taxes are supposedly for giving rich friends another 1/2 trillion dollars. I've never been a big fan of class warfare and wealth redistribution arguments. I'll pick capitalism over socialism anytime. In this country the tax code is progressive (a fact that in itself is closer to socialism than I care to be). So, with that being the case, so must be tax cuts. Those that make the most money pay the most taxes (disproportionately so - the top 50% or wage earners pay 96% of the taxes) in this country. It stands to reason then that those that pay the most in taxes will save the most in any cut. If I don't pay much in taxes, then I can't expect to save much from a tax cut when it comes about. Tax cuts in this country become even more progressive by the fact that the largest cuts as a percentage go to the lower income brackets and smallest cuts as a percentage goes to the higher income brackets (a political reality in terms of being the only way to get tax cuts passed). So in this country if you pay the least in taxes you get the most, as a percentage of any tax break.
Will the rich get richer as a result of tax cut? All I can say is - is that I hope so since the rich tend to reinvest their wealth vs. hording money in bank vaults like in the old Ritchie Rich cartoons. You won't find any class envy with me. And since this is America, I would like to think that the possibility still exist that I could become rich if it ever should become important to me.
Instead of fuming because of class envy and dreaming about wealth redistribution, I prefer to look at things differently. I'm all for the rich getting richer.
There is one thing true about times when the rich are getting richer, and companies are making more money - and that is that I have work, job security is better, and wages improve. When the rich, and companies start to lose money, I lose work, job security sucks, and those that still have work either have stagnate wages, or wages that go down.
Socialism has one undeniable result. Instead of a small percentage of the population being poor, with socialism everybody is poor and only a select handful have any power or wealth (there are those in Washington that would very much like to end up being that select few).
So, when I hear the words "Tax and Spend Liberal" I translate that as being a Wealth Redistributionist, or if you will, a Socialist.
One problem with your statement! People equate Communisum with Socialisum. Jesus and his and his 12 were true Socialist. Everyone shared and Shared alike. Has not beed a real good example of this much since. The Mendenites (How ever you spell it and a few other religous sects are about as close as you get today! It does not work in a very large group
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 18, 2003 03:00 AM
Slug I took the time to read your post. Companies move to Mexico for cheap labor because Americans are not loyal to Americans. We should pay the price and we would keep our Jobs
When we get laid off, we pay for our unemployment through making less money to begin with because the employer sends part of our money to the government for this! When that runs out and we get wellfare, again we are paying ourselves from the taxes we overpaid when we were working.
Yes it may get worse before it gets better! Greed is the real problem
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted April 18, 2003 03:08 AM
Vincent, you disappoint me. I was expecting better from you than the tax cut to give the rich another $1/2 trillion. That's so old and out of touch it's not worth replying to. Sad.
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It's a free country brother
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