eddbaz
Parking Attendant
Posts: 9
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posted December 16, 2012 08:10 PM
Advise needed on zx12r turbo project
Hi, I'm running a zx12r a1 setup in my Kitcar, looking into fitting a turbo at some stage, I have aquired a set of headers with an external 38 mm tial waste gate and a gas flowed and prepped head fitted with adjustable cam sprockets so far.
I am looking for information and advise, I want the engine to be as reliable as possible looking at wanting around 250-300 bhp, I know will have to change internals, rods,pistons clutch basket, need recommendations and some advise on what turbo unit to get.
Any advise will be really appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Ed.
  
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almost_les
Zone Head
Posts: 590
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posted December 18, 2012 06:18 PM
disco potato
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted December 26, 2012 10:01 AM
What about your transmission? What about not just the basket but possibly a lockup? A turbo 12 is costly because the 12 motor is inherently weaker than its Busa/14 counterparts. Good luck. Most turbo 12s I have seen with my own eyes, either on the dyno, street or occaisional track are "hit or miss"....with a lot more miss.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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saltwheels east
Novice Class
Posts: 47
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posted December 26, 2012 01:56 PM
quote:
are "hit or miss"....with a lot more miss.
A.
that's encouraging.
I just had to.
I'm sure that you are right.
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franey
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted December 29, 2012 07:20 AM
As long as you've allocated SEVERAL thousand dollars going about it more power to you.
This isn't like a small dry shot of dope or an off the shelf piston kit....the 12 demands you spend more to reliably turbo compared to other bikes because of the inherently weaker stock components.
Best of luck.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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steell
Parking Attendant
Posts: 26
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posted December 30, 2012 09:09 AM
quote:
.the 12 demands you spend more to reliably turbo compared to other bikes because of the inherently weaker stock components.
That's a pretty general statement, can you be more specific as to "what" ZX12 parts are weaker?
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted January 01, 2013 10:41 AM
Transmission
Clutch
Valve springs
Fuel System not up to the task after 200 or so HP so you need to spend more money on upgrades.
Not to mention welding up the airbox/frame as a plenum as well as naturally higher compression means just bolting one on to a stocker is asking for it unlike the 14 and Busa IMO.
The 12R is a wrung out, high performing 9R, higher strung, with less room on the table. It isn't a Busa that was a scaled down 1500 from the factory.
Unless you are willing to spend lots of money from the very beginning and not cut any corners you will end up with an unreliable basket case. Most abandon the ghost because they didn't think it through. Look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are really ready to dump more money into your 12 than the cost of purchasing a new 14R. If the answer is YES, proceed. If the answer is NO, don't do it.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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DeathProof
Novice Class
deceased
Posts: 51
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posted January 05, 2013 05:39 AM
Joe Haile wrote an excellent book called Motorcycle Turbocharging, Supercharging & Nitrous Oxide. I have learned from it all of the things I needed to know. Amazon has it if you can find one....buy it. I am running a t3/t4 intercooled with a variable dry shot. Works great and reliable at low boost. The trick with the 12 is to know what you are doing and don't ask for way to much from the bike and wont blow up. I love and hate this thing but it hauls ass and is hands down the sexiest bike they ever made. Good luck. James Torres - Armageddon MotorSports
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DeathProof
Novice Class
deceased
Posts: 51
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posted January 05, 2013 06:28 AM
Her are a few more pics of my Turbo intercooled with Nos. This bike is not finished and will be torn back down for final tuning and modifications to motor. The main thing about turbo's is the time involved in fabrication all the added parts cost and the brutal self education.
One of the tricks I have learned is to remotely locate the Turbo inside the tail section.
Another is Increasing the charge piping and using dry nitrous to intercool the boost on racing applications.
The stock zx12r runs 12.2:1 compression whereas most Turbo motors run 8:1 or 9:1 maybe 10:1. This allows for the increased air volume from the Turbo. The only way to mount a turbo on the zx12r and run boost near 1 bar or 14.5 lbs is to lower the compression. One way to do this is by adding an aluminum spacer plate + (.40 - .50) between the head and cylinders. That will increase the volume of the stock motor and give you some room to boost it safely. The list of things you will have to engineer yourself for this bike to work cheaply is extensive....mind boggling. But worth the effort I think. Just to have the one out there is worth it to me.
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted January 05, 2013 06:30 AM
Ummmm....so where does the rider sit?
This would be a great setup for standing on the pegs roll-on racing.
The car guys hate that...but I nose over deep in the 170s standing on the pegs ;-(
Sometimes I have found standing on the pegs means you're holding on to the bars while the air is trying to peel you off....which sometimes induces slappers.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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DeathProof
Novice Class
deceased
Posts: 51
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posted January 05, 2013 06:41 AM
Joe Haile wrote an excellent book called Motorcycle Turbocharging, Supercharging & Nitrous Oxide. I have learned from it all of the things I needed to know. Amazon has it if you can find one....buy it. I am running a t3/t4 intercooled with a variable dry shot. Works great and reliable at low boost. The trick with the 12 is to know what you are doing and don't ask for way to much from the bike and wont blow up. I love and hate this thing but it hauls ass and is hands down the sexiest bike they ever made. Good luck. James Torres - Armageddon MotorSports
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DeathProof
Novice Class
deceased
Posts: 51
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posted January 05, 2013 04:48 PM
Shiphteey, don't be mesmerized by the big bottle. Believe it or not I can still tuck in and have 5 inches clearance from my chest when in my normal ridding position. When you run land speed you will need more squeeze than in a drag race. Especially when you are running without an intercooled and are using dry Nos to cool the boost. The power is phenomenal and tunable when you run less boost and more Nos at top end. It works. If you think this bike is stupid than wait until you see the all wheel drive zx12r power Bonneville bike I am building to run out on the salt!
You have to admit, the bike is sweet. And it works!
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DeathProof
Novice Class
deceased
Posts: 51
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posted January 05, 2013 04:52 PM
Sorry guys but my smart phone makes me sound stupid! Lmao. Damn auto correct
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted January 12, 2013 05:19 PM
You can build a very nice reliable 300 hp turbo ZX-12.
Use the stock bore Muzzy Turbo pistons with the lowered ring pack and smaller pin. Get the stock rods bushed down for the pin ( Muzzy can do that for you) Stock rods are fine at 300-325 hp. Go with the RC injectors I forgot the size, but somebody will know. Get the cyl. and head match o-ringed. You will need a full ECM to manage the fuel and spark so you keep it out of detonation. You will need a big external fuel pump to handle the fuel flow and a scavenge pump to keep the turbo dry. In a car you'll need a dry sump set up, of course. Keep the revs below 12 and you will have good reliability.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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smokeysevin
Novice Class
ZX12r-STX15f hybrid motor
Posts: 82
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posted February 06, 2013 04:36 PM
Just a thought, you guys should look into the kawasaki ultra 300 jet ski motor, 300 hp 83mm bore, 69.2mm stroke, 8.4:1 static cr, 17psi of boost.
some parts interchange and we use zx12r parts all the time, cams drop in with a different sprocket, (I am using zx12r turbo pistons in my ski (non boosted version) Might be worth looking at, though we only rev to 8k.
best information can be found at greenhulk.net and 250xtech.com
Sean
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1498 cc
69.2mm stroke
83mm bore
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DocsNinja
Novice Class
Backs and Bikes is what I do..
Posts: 70
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posted February 27, 2013 11:27 AM
What kind of numbers does the rear mount turbo make? Whats the lag like with the turbo in the back? Clean set up, just the first one Ive ever seen in the back on a 12.
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Docs Cycleworx home of Dr. Ryan Scarsella and SmokinZX14.
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Big CC Racing
Novice Class
Posts: 33
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posted March 29, 2013 04:06 AM
quote:
What about your transmission? What about not just the basket but possibly a lockup? A turbo 12 is costly because the 12 motor is inherently weaker than its Busa/14 counterparts. Good luck. Most turbo 12s I have seen with my own eyes, either on the dyno, street or occaisional track are "hit or miss"....with a lot more miss.
A.
Disagree with that completely. A 12 motor is much stronger than a 14 especially regarding the head gasket & the crank.
I look after the engines of 5 or 6 race customers with 500+hp ZX12R applications & their yearly overhauls are always cheaper than equivalent Hayabusa.
Some of my customers push 30 to 40 pounds of boost & their head gasket integrity is far better than any Busa pushing the same psi. It's how you build em & how you tune them that counts.
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted March 30, 2013 05:38 AM
Do you find the 12R transmission, which is known to be weaker than the ZX11 a weak point like others?
If so then the cost for the budding turbo-ist is higher because a basic "stock motor, low boost" type setup still fails quickly when the transmission protests after 200 HP runs over and over.
I think box stock and low boost most will find they have to spend a little more money up front....fueling is lacking on the A models around 200 HP. The 12 has its advantages, no doubt. And I know you guys run some record setting 12s....my hats off ot you. I'm going by what I've seen here, read on the forums and experienced myself first hand not to mention seen and heard from other racers at the track.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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Big CC Racing
Novice Class
Posts: 33
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posted March 30, 2013 09:57 AM
The stock box is a 6 & two 3's scenario. If they are violently spun then they can shred their teeth in some gears a bit easier than a Busa. On the other hand they tend to shift gear easier on racing probably due to less torque in the engines. This means on overhaul they consume less gears & less shift forks.
Yes the fuel system is again on one hand insufficient but has advantages on the other. It is easier & better to put big injectors into a 12 than a Busa. The 12 will not gave starting problems caused by fuel flooding like the Busa & it will not hiccup on the pumper program. So it's a much smoother bike using just 4 big injectors. The Busa is always better to use 8. It is common on any bike to swap the pump & the regulator when force feeding so that's not really an issue.
The 12r wins with the head gasket integrity. Provided its all lapped just put APE 11mm studs in them & they will take big power. A Busa you have to machine the cases for 12 or 13mm but in doing so you reduce the washered clamping area on the heads, especially at 13mm. This again reduces the strength. It has also been a long argument that the water ways on the Busa bias the head gasket to go on its rear side.
The weakest of the motors for race application is the ZX14. It's wide sump area makes consistent scavenging a task even with a purpose pan.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted March 31, 2013 05:48 AM
Are you guys doing anything special to the open deck design of the 12 motor? I cracked a stock block (83mm) at 25 psi
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 03, 2013 09:00 PM
Scott,
I wouldn't expect to run that much boost without an O-ringed billet block. Not gonna work.
Didn't we talk about this early on in your project? Seems we did.....
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted April 06, 2013 05:45 AM
Yes we did Doug, and its what I used last summer, but the pictures of the BigCC bike show an oem block or what looks to be oem on all their facebook pictures.
If i had to guess, 83mm tall deck MTC pistons? (copper base spacer?)
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Big CC Racing
Novice Class
Posts: 33
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posted April 06, 2013 02:40 PM
Every 12r racer in the UK is running OEM blocks with no issue with strength. Land speed & drag racing. Perhaps we are missing something, but it sure ain't boost pressure....
Everyone who is serious is also on Motec or M Marrelli not stock ecu .
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Gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted April 06, 2013 07:06 PM
Bigg CC are you guys using ice water reservoir to carry the heat away from that water cooled heat exchanger? I noticed on the Dyno Video the hoses were running off to a remote unit not located on the bike. One more question is what are you guys doing with the oil pan? Since I see the OEM water pump on that bike it don't appear that you have found a need for a dry sump with the 12R motor. What would a complete top of the line Motec set up cost for the 12R?
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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Gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted April 06, 2013 09:41 PM
quote:
Every 12r racer in the UK is running OEM blocks with no issue with strength. Land speed & drag racing. Perhaps we are missing something, but it sure ain't boost pressure....
Everyone who is serious is also on Motec or M Marrelli not stock ecu .
Anyone that didn't happen to be you Mr BigCC that posted this and went against the word of the mighty Doug at this point would be fighting off an attack from all directions because you surely didn't dispute the word of the all knowing Doug Meyers and his Muzzy book of knowledge of how to explode motors! LOL !!! You Sir are good in my book.... Now the dry sump answer which I already know what it is will be icing on the cake!
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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