RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 25, 2003 06:15 PM
Lost the engine on the green 12 today :(
Just got home.. Details to follow..
  
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Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted March 25, 2003 07:12 PM
hey Bergie,this might not be a appropriate time but i have a 2001 motor for sale
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted March 25, 2003 08:40 PM
You didn't look that  when I saw you.
It was good to meet you Bergie, have fun this weekend anyway.
Dave
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted March 25, 2003 08:56 PM
I agree with DID, I felt and looked worse than you did and like I said elsewhere, better there than Maxton!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 25, 2003 09:52 PM
Dave, you're right! I'm not sad (not happy either...). I always say the day your engine fails is the beginning of a new project! So keep your spirits up! So I follow my own advice on this one I guess!
Cowboy, I appreciate the offer, how much? I do already have a spare, but email me off list...
So to answer the most commonly asked question! NO, no nitrous! I didn't even get a chance to spray it with the new progressive controller, this was all motor no nitrous!
Right now we're guessing spun bearing... don't know yet, until I tear it out tomorrow or at least get the oil drained and the pan off it.
Here's the story:
I had just taken the bike out to Champion Motorsports for a quick dyno-tuning session on the wideband to get the fuel mapping sorted out for Maxton this weekend.
I had my nitrous mapping in the PC3R but we were running it N/A on the dyno, no nitrous. It started at around 190rwhp, climbing to 194 after a couple of pulls with no changes just getting heat in the engine and cleaning out the plugs.
Keep in mind this map is super fat (for nitrous) and the plugs are CR10s which are one-step colder than stock and non-platinum.
Anyway after a couple pulls it started cleaning out the plugs, it picked up a couple ponies here and there upto 194 with no map changes just WOT on the dyno. A/F ratio was in the 10.2~11.8:1 (rich) range... all of the sudden on the 5th pull it sharply dropped power (almost 16rwhp) at 11,200rpm like a falling off a ledge..
We were like WTF?!
No noise. No changes to the map. No rattles, no smoke, no detonation.
We stopped for about 15 to 20 minutes to scratch our heads a bit, couldn't find anything. We checked the mapping, everything looked fine, no corrupt numbers in the map (as we've seen before when PC3R's go bad). Just couldn't figure it out. So we decided to remove any timing advance in the PC3R just for kicks, zero it out so-to-speak in the timing tables.
The bike had cooled, so then we we made another pull.. no "boom" just a rediculously low 165rwhp!! and only 150 @ 11,800!!!! we quit at that point! Holy shit something is screwed.. don't know what yet but it's obvious we need to stop dyno'ing the bike!
First I pulled the plugs, all four looked absolutely perfect. No obvious leaks around the engine, coolant looks good. Bike wasn't over-heating, and the oil light and FI lights weren't on either. Hell the bike actually starts and runs fine! Sounds good, idles good, WTF!
So I called Lee Shierts. Of course getting thru Lee's ARMY of Goons on the phone is always fun. I ask to speak with Lee and get the standard "who are you" and "what is this about" routine. I say "this is Bergie, can I speak with Lee please" and the guy is like "I need to know what it's about before I can put a call through to LEE" so I tell him "it's about my engine, just tell him it's Bergie" and he gives me some speech about how he needs more detailed information, so I finally said "DUDE, he knows who I am just tell him it's Berg.. THANKS". He was like "ooooooookaaaay" AS IF he was doing me a favor and with a tone like no-chance lee will talk to this guy.. WHATEVER
Lee picks up, obviously. First thing I tell Lee is that he needs better calls screeners!  Anyone could get thru! 
Anyway he was nice enough to help me out best he could over the phone. He described to me (before I said anything about the dyno chart) what happens when you're about to lose an engine on the dyno. The sharp drop during the last 1000 RPM, then the massive loss of power on the next pull.
He said 90% chance bearing failure, and that it's probably one-pull away from massive or catastophic engine failure he says "don't run it again!" Hell I listen to what he says after all he knows his shit, he built it!
Am I pissed? Nope. Hell who knows how many bottles of nitrous, dozens of 200MPH+ top-speed runs at Maxton, I counted over 650+ dragstrip runs from last season, got it solid in the 8s, and achieved every goal I had expected to with the bike since Lee built it.
I knew it wouldn't last forever, hell almost eight thousand street miles on this engine!! That's 5000 more than Lee thought it would last the way I beat on it! It's safe to say I beat the shit out of that bike.
Obviously at this point I'm only speculating as to if it's even engine failure, hell technically it could be something as stupid as a PC3R problem or my timing retard box, but I'm too scared to pull those off and make another dyno pass without looking at the oil very closely first.
It should be fairly obvious when I drain the oil tomorrow, especially since I just changed the oil and filter this afternoon before going to the dyno!
I left the green monster at Champion because I didn't want to ride it home. I will go trailer it home tomorrow. Like I said luckily it still runs, no knock, probably coulda rode it home but didn't chance it.
I have the dyno runs printed, I want you to see the curves. I'm scanning now, I will post the chart in a bit. The wierd thing is the power curve is identical all the was across the curve, just 45hp LOW.
I'm just glad this problem became visible to me on the dyno today, not at 200mph at Maxton this weekend. I can't imagine holding on to a destructing engine at the top end of the standing mile!
I'm also luck that I have a spare Silver 2001 ZX12R. Rich is coming over tomorrow night we'll transfer my steering damper over to the silver 12 and safety wire the bike. I just spent like 10 hours wiring the damn nitrous controllers and shit on my green bike so I'm not moving it over, maybe next week or something I will pull the engine from the silver bike and put it in the green chassis and just ride / race that until I can rebuild the stroked engine.
For this weekend however I will just run 100% stock ZX12R with stock exhaust just for fun! Except I don't have a Bonneville box so I guess 186mph is my speed limit this weekend...
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 25, 2003 10:19 PM
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted March 26, 2003 07:38 AM
Bergie, Now I know why you are OK! You got 200% use out of the engine and have been waiting for this day to come sooner not later!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted March 26, 2003 10:30 AM
Bergie,
We'd be happy to donate a Bonneville Box. Just say the word.
Doug
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 26, 2003 10:45 AM
Looks like it DID happen on run #21 Bergie...
Let us know what you find out...it DOES sound/look like it hurt a bearing (fuel curve didn't get stooo-ped looking) ...
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted March 26, 2003 10:49 AM
quote:
Bergie,
We'd be happy to donate a Bonneville Box. Just say the word.
Doug
Wow! That is sooooo coool!!!
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-----------
"There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; the rest are just games." - Ernest Hemingway
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 26, 2003 02:11 PM
THANKS DOUG / MUZZYS
quote:
Bergie,
We'd be happy to donate a Bonneville Box. Just say the word.
Doug
thanks! much appreciated!
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted March 26, 2003 07:18 PM
I'm not near you guys as far as mechanical abilities, but why does this indicate a bearing failure?Is it because the slop in the bearing reduces the energy transferred to the crank?Whats scary is if someone beats the shit out of his bike and spins a bearing,sells it to an unsuspecting,who doesn't hear any noise until he opens the throttle up after he bought it and sol.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted March 27, 2003 09:44 AM
It's because the bearing is "tying up", and absorbing power, it's an increase in internal friction. If this was a rod bearing failure (and I'm not so sure it was), it was only moments from catastrophic failure. I would have expected to hear/see some effects when the bike was re-started. I would not be surprised to see some scuffed piston(s) or maybe a damaged main brg (they don't make as much noise).
Doug
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 27, 2003 02:59 PM
I'm transferring my steering damper over to my Silver 2001 ZX12R now and tonight will be installing the Muzzys 'Bonneville Box' that Doug Meyer and Muzzys so graciously offered (THANKS!), as well as the digital gear indicator provided by http://www.actionstation.com. I will also be prepping the bike with safety wiring for ECTA Maxton this weekend! Going to be a busy night tonight!
Plans are to run the bike 100% stock on Saturday. Everything will be 100% production including the airfilters, gearing, exhaust and engine. The only mod is the Muzzys box to remove the speed limitation.
Providing we have the time necessary to make back to back runs, I will do some "stacks" testing as well in stock condition. Then Saturday night we will install the Muzzys titanium exhaust with carbon canister that I pulled off of my 200hp green ZX12 for some comparison runs on Sunday and more testing.
My previous best on our similarly prepped red 2000 ZX12R was 192.5 MPH (stock engine 169rwhp w/Muzzys pipe w/o filters, no PC3, stock gearing).
(Again time permitting), I will try to make some passes without bodywork on Sunday as well, this also on stock motor w/Muzzys pipe and shoot for some records in those classes.
Those are the "modifed plans" for this weekend being that we assume the engine was lost on the green bike, we I will leave at home and hopefully tear down for a rebuild in the next couple weeks.
I'll post a full report next week!
Berg--
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 27, 2003 03:53 PM
Have fun...BE SAFE...
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted March 27, 2003 05:32 PM
Dude have a great time.... hey talk to them again about the leathers!! zip together!! should be fine..
Mad Mike
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 27, 2003 09:19 PM
MM- The 2003 rulebook says "270 degrees" so yes, zip together leathers with metal zipper "around" the waist are acceptable this year.
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted March 27, 2003 11:46 PM
Good luck, Bergie! I hope you have a great time!
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted March 28, 2003 12:07 AM
Score!!! dude I am going to try and make it at least one time then this season!
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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mrsantafe
Zone Head
Posts: 521
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posted March 28, 2003 03:57 AM
Sorry to hear your engine has a problem. It looks like this might be the same case for me too!! My bike made 169hp with a pipe and no pc. My buddy just got back from dynojet in Las Vegas and needed a fuel injected bike to practice with. I said go ahead and use mine. He dialed the pc in at 13.2-13.5 accross the board. My bike only makes 159hp now! I would of thought a good map could add 3-4 hp gain to 173. It looks like a 14hp drop for me. I am going to check my oil carefully too, looking for little gold flakes. If it turns out to be a bearing, what the approximate price to fix, and at this point is it worthing adding extra goodies( bigbore, headwork, stroker, etc) thanks
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9.78@155.13 mph 1.71 60 ft @ a near mile high dragstrip
2006 ZX14 gone
2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted March 28, 2003 10:15 AM
Bergie,
We're loaded up and fixing to head out. Just want you to know you'll have all the "help" you can stand changing things over.....See you guys soon.
Dan
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kawachan
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted March 28, 2003 10:36 AM
quote:
Score!!! dude I am going to try and make it at least one time then this season!
Me too Mike!! Which one you shooting for?? I have the dampner now, so I just need to safety wire and make my qualification runs. That is......after I put my short arm on since I know a 6 over won't hook up at Maxton.
Godd luck BERGIE!!
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RED NINJAS RULE!!
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 29, 2003 09:29 AM
 Edited By: psycho1122 on 5 Apr 2003 07:21
mrsantafe.....Send a sample of your oil to (oillab.com) and find out for shure..it's only $25.00!
Also 13.2-13.4 is NOT the correct A/F for "All" engines....you very well could be too rich.....especially if your air pump into your exhaust was still hooked up!!
OR
Too lean if it was disconnected and you used a Dyno that cannot determine what your engine likes for A/F "real time" under LOAD.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted March 29, 2003 09:55 AM
Just gotta agree with Psycho on that one,.......hopefully you don't have the Kleen Air still on.
Without it, you'd would *probably* get more power with a 12.8 ratio. If your dyno sheet is showing the 13.5 at the upper RPM's, then that's probably why you're down on hp IMO. (it's more likely anyway)
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