CharlieTuna
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted March 01, 2003 06:41 PM
Interested in information/opinions on engine size changes
I am considering upping the displacement on my 2002 ZX-12. My initial thoughts are to do a big bore kit(most likely Muzzy). My reasoning to go that route vs. stroking is that I have an impression that by stroking the motor can result in a weaker crankshaft setup. I am not sure about the strength of a welded crankshaft and a billet crankshaft can be prohibitively expensive.
Are my concerns regarding strength of the crankshaft valid? Should I be considering a stroker setup more seriously? Or, perhaps in conjunction with a big bore setup?
What would be your preference for how to best go about this?
Any opinions or information would be appreciated regarding this.
  
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FastBikes4Life
Novice Class
Posts: 82
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posted March 01, 2003 10:09 PM
I'm no expert in this area but from what I've read recently (because I've been asking the same questions), a good 1361 kit will just about do everything you want it to do. Muzzy has this kit and I've heard very few complaints from riders who have had the work done. Apparently there are no worries about hurting the bike or causing damage to the engine because Muzzy put the kit together specifically for this bike. I don't know too much about stroking the motor but my thinking is "why mess around when the 1361 Muzzy kit has a proven record of success?" I've read reports on this site and on the ZX-12R board at LABusas.org that the 1361 kit is putting 210 horsepower to the rear wheel!! You'll kill anything on the road (short of another 1361 ZX-12R). Just my opinion.
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Zhooligan
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posted March 01, 2003 10:39 PM
Muzzy runs welded cranks in their drag bikes. I have a 1361 and love it. 210 at the rear wheel and loving it. Go for it.
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entropy
Moderator
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posted March 02, 2003 05:37 AM
1361 is the tits!!!
BUT, don't get to married to that 210hp expectation. Dynos vary and bikes vary; a more common experience is 190-200hp SAE. No matter what the dyno says, its the tits!!!!!!
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CharlieTuna
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted March 02, 2003 09:31 AM
Does the rpm potential of the motor get affected by doing the 1361 kit?
From you guys have said my concerns regarding the strength and endurance of the welded crankshaft are not something to worry about?
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Zhooligan
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posted March 02, 2003 10:22 AM
Swft visited Muzzy's shop and posted some info. I believe he mentioned that Rob Muzzy showed him some even bigger motors that they spin to 13000 rpm with welded cranks.
I have ran welded cranks for years without any failure. But I am a road racer and street rider who occasionaly drag races. If I were going to be some kind of a prostar and NHRA guy I might consider the billet crank. But in reality I see more guys breaking rod bolts, spitting shims etc. And again I have had many welded cranks, stroker motors, turbos, monster over bores etc. and the cranks have never failed. That said you will get other opinions as well. And when you get those opinions don't overlook the fact that billet cranks fail too.
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Megabyte
Pro
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posted March 02, 2003 10:35 AM
quote:
1361 is the tits!!!
BUT, don't get to married to that 210hp expectation. Dynos vary and bikes vary; a more common experience is 190-200hp SAE. No matter what the dyno says, its the tits!!!!!!
I hope to be riding my new 1361 soon, and based on solid information including hard data on two othere 1361s and the expertise of the mechanic, my expectation is 210 hp. We'll see, I'll let you know....
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entropy
Moderator
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posted March 02, 2003 10:47 AM
and i hope you get 210 SAE!!!!!!
All I know is that some dynos, some 1361's (incl mine) never broke 195 until cams & Nutec got into the picture. I really don't worry what the absolute #'s on the dyno say, I believe the mph at the end of the 1/4. 
1361: IT'S THE TIT'S!!!!!
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Zhooligan
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posted March 02, 2003 11:21 AM
You are corect entropy. All of the engines vary. And 200 plus should be considered a big success. And there is indeed a variance from day to day on any given dyno along with the air and everything wles. And yes dynos try to correct for this, but My bet is still on a cool damp morning in a cool dyno room!
And My 209 is on Nutec.
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entropy
Moderator
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posted March 02, 2003 02:27 PM
ZH,
it is my understanding that if temp & pressure are the same, the lower the humidity the higher the hp (and lower the dyno correction factor).
You are the dyno expert, is this true?
I use this guy's hp cf calculator
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm
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Zhooligan
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posted March 02, 2003 04:04 PM
 Edited By: Zhooligan on 2 Mar 2003 16:10
That is corect. Here in the Northwest we don't have very many cold crisp dry days! But then we don't have much in the way of Humidity either. Our humidity is measured in inches!
And I defer to Velaso and Swft on the Expertise / science when it comes to or is involved with the dyno. 
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Megabyte
Pro
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posted March 03, 2003 12:13 AM
Edited By: Megabyte on 3 Mar 2003 00:18
Below is Muzzy's 1361 ad. It claims 210 hp and more than 120 lbs. ft. of torque for their kit. I've talked w/muzzys, and they claim these are fair and reasonable numbers for anyone who knows that they're doing.
Muzzys has created a new kit for the ZX-12 owner who just can't get enough! This kit includes everything you need to turn your ZX-12R into a 210 horsepower monster. Like wheelies? Over 120 lbs. ft. of torque at 7500 rpm ought to provide all you need. Want low end power for those "tough" situations? How about 100 hp at 5000 rpm? It's a straight shot from there to 210 hp at 10,000 until you hit the rev limiter! This is street-able controllable horsepower that creates a well mannered monster out of your ZX-12R. This kit contains everything you need. It is a true bolt in; no machine work is required. The pistons are compression specific for this stroke and give a street-able 13:1 compression ratio. The kit contains a crankshaft with a stroke increase of 4mm, special base spacer and gasket, 2.4mm oversize pistons, rings, clips, head gasket and a bored and re-plated cylinder. There is a core charge applicable to your crankshaft and cylinder. A Power Commander 3 (available separately) is required and an appropriate map is supplied with the kit. Price is an affordable $1,995.95
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted March 03, 2003 08:27 AM
Megabyte, if you get the kit don't get the "HP bug"!!! Please Please Please don't expect to get the numbers, expect to get a WONDERFUL change in performance.......if you are building the bike for 210hp then i suggest that you go with a different combo.
Entropy is a very experience person with building different Muzzy combos and extensive testing. He is also a realist and a positive person. I believe he uses Muzzy parts mainly also, so he is not biased against Muzzy. I on the other hand do not have any Muzzy parts expect the clutch basket and the airshifter. That is because i did not even come close to the numbers with the 1270 kit on several different dynoes in several parts of the country. I saw an improvement but then i started thinking about some facts......70cc's is not very much to get an addtional 30hp. 157hp to 195hp needs much much more. I did finally get a true 193hp through a y2k muffler setup. I will tell you this, my true 193hp will KILL your muzzy advertised 210hp in everyway!!!
My point, don't buy the HYPE buy the improved experience!!!
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Megabyte
Pro
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posted March 03, 2003 09:26 AM
quote:
Megabyte, if you get the kit don't get the "HP bug"!!! Please Please Please don't expect to get the numbers, expect to get a WONDERFUL change in performance.......if you are building the bike for 210hp then i suggest that you go with a different combo.
Entropy is a very experience person with building different Muzzy combos and extensive testing. He is also a realist and a positive person. I believe he uses Muzzy parts mainly also, so he is not biased against Muzzy. I on the other hand do not have any Muzzy parts expect the clutch basket and the airshifter. That is because i did not even come close to the numbers with the 1270 kit on several different dynoes in several parts of the country. I saw an improvement but then i started thinking about some facts......70cc's is not very much to get an addtional 30hp. 157hp to 195hp needs much much more. I did finally get a true 193hp through a y2k muffler setup. I will tell you this, my true 193hp will KILL your muzzy advertised 210hp in everyway!!!
My point, don't buy the HYPE buy the improved experience!!!
I appreciate the thoughtful response. However, I know of 2 other 1361s done by MVR that are closer to 210 than 200 HP, and in addition to the "Muzzy bolt on 210 HP 1361," I am doing a lot of extras:
Muzzy Adjustable Cam Sprocket & Cam Timing
billet cam chain tensioner
Muzzy Fan & Fan Swtich
Muzzy Velocity Stacks
Muzzy High flow fuel pump
Supertek and balance all moving parts
Vacuum on crank case MOD
Oil channel Modification
Remove crank counter balancers
Muzzy block off plates
Zx 6r Clutch Sprins
Heat Blanket
And from what I've heard, Mike is doing alot of extra cleanup work on my head.
I plan to be absolutely anal with my 1k breakin, and will continue to believe that my 1361 will also be closer to 210 than 200 HP. I do agree that Muzzys 210 hype with a simple bolt on is more pie in the sky than reality, even though Muzzy claims otherwise. We'll see.... I appreciate the fact that you took the time to express your thoughts and concerns. "Only your friends tell you the truth."
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kawachan
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted March 03, 2003 11:27 AM
Post some 1/4 #'s RA12r. My measly 187 hp 1270 ran a 9.14 at almost 152 with myself riding it!
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted March 03, 2003 02:11 PM
Edited By: krexken on 3 Mar 2003 14:14
Muzzy numbers are not SAE so they are pretty accurate, actually. Especially accurate if you live below the ocean and near Alaska. Just gotta read the dang fine print. I've been tickled pink with my 1361 for over five thousand miles. I'd ride it anywhere if I wasn't selling it today.
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Zhooligan
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posted March 03, 2003 02:14 PM
What I try to remind everyone is to look around at the number of bikes with 190 plus horsepower! You may not be a class of your own, but... when they call roll it doesn't take long!
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workman1000
Parking Attendant
Posts: 13
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posted March 03, 2003 10:10 PM
Does the 1361 kit run much hotter than normal? What about issues with 93 octane pump gas?
Muzzy and SBM have billet big block kits that I hear run as cool or cooler than stock.(important in Florida) The Muzzy big block is 1317cc and I think the SBM big block is 1330cc both with a stock crank. The big drawback being $$$, they are a little pricey but should be very reliable. Can't decide between that or the stroker kit, but temp is important.
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Zhooligan
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posted March 03, 2003 10:22 PM
Muzzy's kit for the 1361 is set up for 93 octane fuel. I don't live in Florida, here in the Northwest overheating has not been an issue. I had my cooling fan wired so I can manually turn it on or let the thermostat turn it on. As a prevention I make it a point to turn the fan on as I cruise up to lights etc. The old ounce of prevention is my motto. I am confused on how the big block can lower cooling temps. I would have to see that for myself.
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entropy
Moderator
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posted March 04, 2003 03:42 AM
in my experience the big block doesn't shed heat any faster.
bottom line is that the more hp you make, the more heat you'll generate. So, if you are running around town at moderate rpm, it won't run hot. If you are running WOT at the track more heat will be generated.
Water wetter + switchable fan = cool enough engine.
Don't worry about heat, worry about having enough battery to turn the sucks over once it is hot...
this is a cool thread!!!!!
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workman1000
Parking Attendant
Posts: 13
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posted March 04, 2003 06:45 AM
It was explained to me that the billet big block has more area for the water jacket. More coolant flow through the block equals less heat. Plus I like the idea of being able to get 1330cc without a stroker crank. As compared to a stroker, less piston speed should mean a more reliable motor. I figure the big block using the stock crank along with some Carillo rods ($900) should be bulletproof.
I don't normally ride around town in stop and go traffic but the few times that I do, this thing cooks like Chernobyl in the summertime. Even with water watter and a fan switch.
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