slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted February 18, 2003 04:27 AM
dividends are paid out on all investments
those who participate in a normal IRA account, ie folks who put in tax free, with deferrment until withdrawel, get to reap a good tax benefit on their retirement income if the tax cuts on dividends goes through.
we aren't talking multi-millionares, at the rate things are going, even if i never make more than 100k/yr or even 50k/yr, i will be taxed on my dividend income, which is for "rich" people only, but is my RETIREMENT.
(yes, i have a roth ira right now, but the socialists are DROOLING in anticipation of removing the tax shelter on the roth funds. they cannot STAND a monetary income source that they haven't got their grubby paws in to)
where does the US govt borrow from? bonds, foreign goverments etc.
if interest rates go up....and the economy STILL grows...what does THAT tell you? people are willing to borrow to purchase/build homes even AT inflated rates. this speaks volumes for the consumer and their well-being financially. If you cut interest rates down, and people STILL won't finance and borrow, then what does THAT indicate?
economics is omre than just numbers and red or black ink. it is more on the consumer confidence. if thec onsumers feel safe, they willspend money. if not, they won't. if no money is spent, company profits go down. this causes a nice spiral...oh the stock market goes down,....oh i shouldn't spend as much maybe i won't have a job......spiral spiral spiral...
but hey, it is fine to hate big business, i mean without big business, we wouldn't have zx12rs to ride, or decent roads to ride them on (roads being the product transport networks) or anything else for that matter.
and what is interesting, EVERY big business started as a one or two man operation. EVERY one. no exceptions, no instantaneous huge business.
like redeld was talking about earlier, with his business, would you begridge him his due rewards if hisbusiness were to take off and he were to start making 300k/yr? the govt does, they would take easily a third of it in income tax alone. then add medicare and social security onthe first 84000, and any state taxes.
but this is after the govt has taxed his COMPANY'S profits before he even got the first check made out to pay any of his bills or employees.
then he saves 10000 and it grows to 20000 in 15 years. well the govt then takes and taxes THAT again.
then he dies, and they take about half of everything he has, just because he died with money.
by the time he dies, his company willhave made x dollars, and when he dies, the profit from the company that the govt DIDN'T take, would amount to about 10-15 cents on the dollar.
      
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted February 18, 2003 07:16 AM
The top 10 business paid "0" Taxes in 2000. Some even got rebates, which mean that they paid Negative Tax. Still as bad as it is here in the US, I would not want to live in Canada, unless I was Poor or sick. In Canada, these people are taken care of. Yes there is waiting for people to get in the Hospitals, but they do not leave there Broke! My Operations cost close to $400,000 $50,000 to mess me up and $350,000 to fix it!
Politics are like religion, People want to Believe and they do! I liked the Chart and noticed that it did not have a parallel Graph Showing the National Debt going up when taxes were down and the Debt going down when taxes were up!
The Person that Really Changed how we live right now is Nixon. Prior to him, people had trust in the presidents and the Government, Now we have neither. There is a Difference between Reagan & Bush Junior, Reagan knew he was "Acting" as President, Bush JR does not know this!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ZHooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
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posted February 18, 2003 08:49 AM
Vincent your comment about business not payinf taxes is my point. All of ths crap about the tax cuts for the rich and big business is crap. They don't pay taxes or if they do iy is minimal at best. They have attorneys, accountants and everyother kind of expert helping them shelter their money etc. Tax cuts go to people like us. I would assume that yourself and purple sage probably make over $80,000 a year together. You don't have a fleet of lawyers and accountants to shelter your money so you pay taxes. And a tax cut saves you money.
The dividend tax cut is another example. Huge corporations and the very wealthy don't really care. They have it figured out. It is the retired couple, widow or widower living on a fixed income that bought stock as a part of their retirement that pay taxes on the dividends they receive.
I would like to see a flat tax period. No BS just a straight flat tax of X%. Let you deduct your home interest and student loans interest from your income and nothing else. Pretty much eliminate the IRS or at least severely reduce the cost to operate it! And of course a large number of tax accountants and lawyers would have to find a different specialty!!
I personally don't really believe that a tax cut will actually fix the economy. But just throwing money at the government doesn't fix it either. So I would rather see the government have to live on less and learn what the rest of have to. I want it but I can't afford it. Not today, maybe next year. What I can I live without so I can afford that. Maybe I had better get a second or third job so I can buy that!!
Your comment about Bush not knowing that he acting as the President is cute. But I would have to say he has brought dignity back into the White House and the guy with the suitcase and launch codes follow Bush everywhere. He actually is our President.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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moodybluezx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 344
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posted February 18, 2003 10:34 AM
quote:
Your comment about Bush not knowing that he acting as the President is cute. But I would have to say he has brought dignity back into the White House and the guy with the suitcase and launch codes follow Bush everywhere. He actually is our President.
cute is your word, tragic is mine..whether you conserves like it or not he is an acting prez. in my book...dignity into the white house..now that's cute...
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Raleigh, NC
Ride it! Like You Stole It!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted February 18, 2003 11:34 AM
Bush vs Clinton
Clinton went to England and furthered his studies
Bush Joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL for 1 year
Clinton Rogue Scholar
Bush Passed
Clinton had Bad Taste in women and was too poor to cover it up
Bush & Daddy both were involved in "Situations" in College and later where Money rulled the day
Clinton a Politition
Bush never had a Business that succeeded (His Oil Company went Bankrupt and as a Minority owner of the Houston Astro's got rid od Sammy Sosa
Clinton Lowest unemployment and Highest wages and reduced the national (or should we call it the Republican) Debt)
Bush, all time high for unemployment and again deficit spending
Clinton had one daughter (Even uglier in person), but doing well in school and no problems
Bush, has twins and just like daddy (The not brilliant) tries to buy Booze with secret service standing near her!
(Who was the better Daddy?)
Clinton was a man that the statement (God messed up when he made man! He gave them a Penis and a Brain and only enough Blood Supply to operate 1 at a time)
Bush a person that never served his country and then went AWOL and because of "Daddy" never went to Jail!
Getting extra from a Pig or going AWOL! I take the man that did not go AWOL!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted February 18, 2003 12:07 PM
So sad Vincent. Don't even know how to reply to the dribble.
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It's a free country brother
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted February 18, 2003 12:18 PM
Horseshit............
quote:
So sad Vincent. Don't even know how to reply to the dribble.
I do, what a friggin' load of manure Vinny Vin. Clinton was a piece of shit,........end of discussion.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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moodybluezx12r
Expert Class
Posts: 344
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posted February 18, 2003 07:11 PM
quote:
Bush vs Clinton
Clinton went to England and furthered his studies
Bush Joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL for 1 year
Clinton Rogue Scholar
Bush Passed
Clinton had Bad Taste in women and was too poor to cover it up
Bush & Daddy both were involved in "Situations" in College and later where Money rulled the day
Clinton a Politition
Bush never had a Business that succeeded (His Oil Company went Bankrupt and as a Minority owner of the Houston Astro's got rid od Sammy Sosa
Clinton Lowest unemployment and Highest wages and reduced the national (or should we call it the Republican) Debt)
Bush, all time high for unemployment and again deficit spending
Clinton had one daughter (Even uglier in person), but doing well in school and no problems
Bush, has twins and just like daddy (The not brilliant) tries to buy Booze with secret service standing near her!
(Who was the better Daddy?)
Clinton was a man that the statement (God messed up when he made man! He gave them a Penis and a Brain and only enough Blood Supply to operate 1 at a time)
Bush a person that never served his country and then went AWOL and because of "Daddy" never went to Jail!
Getting extra from a Pig or going AWOL! I take the man that did not go AWOL!
amen vincent...some folks cant handle the truth  ..
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Raleigh, NC
Ride it! Like You Stole It!
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Dino
Pro
Posts: 1422
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posted February 18, 2003 07:54 PM
Swft, my bike didn't show up today.......can you give me a tracking #??? 
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uh oh
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Zhooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
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posted February 18, 2003 08:01 PM
Kind of a fruedian slip. Rogue scholar or was that a Rhodes Scholar. A Rhodes Scholar does not mean you are Einstein. You don't have to be a Valedictorian. You have ok grades, fill out the paper work, play the politics, get your letters of recomendations and interview well. "I can feel your pain"
AWOL for a year? Thats a new one. Bill hid and Bush enlisted. Am I happy he joined the National Guard? Not really, but he could have chosen to not do anything. They don't hand out fighter planes to idiots. He passed that is correct. He went to Yale and Got his MBA from Harvard. For the record his father didn't have enough money to buy a degree from either of those institutions. Al Gore of coursed failed and dropped out.
As for Mr. Bush's company going broke lets get the facts corect. He built a company from nothing, he sold it for Millions and it went broke after he sold it. And he may have been a minority partner in the Rangers but he did make over thirty millin as a a minority partner. And yes he did trade Sammy Sosa and has acknowledge it as a bad decision. Note how many championships Sammy has brought to the Cubs. As for Bush and his fathers influence if Dad was using is influence how is it that George W. got nailed for a DWI, was fined per the norm for the time, had to pay the fine and the citation still shows on his record?
Other then selling pardons, nights in the Lincoln bedroom, politial influence, and writing a book where has Clinton ever shown any sign of the least little bit of business sense.
AS for the economy Clinton couldn't spell economy. Reagan and Bush handed his a country and a world condition that allowed Clinton to shit on the military and essentially spend almost nothing on the military. With Clinton as our President military personnel had to ask for food stamps to feed their families.
The best thing I can say about this is we conservatives had to set and watch Clinton humiliate our country and bring shame to the office of President for eight years. Hopefully the Clinton lovers will get to grind their teeth for 8 years just we had to!!
Whats scarey is I would assume you all are waiting anxiously for the chance to put Hillary in office.
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted February 18, 2003 09:24 PM
Hillary would be better than Bush. At least she could keep her temper in check. Any family that could name a son, JEB CAN'T be too sharp. Bush jr. is only around because of his RICH, WELL CONNECTED OLD MAN. At LEAST Clinton, like him or not. Is self made, No rich father covering up all his mistakes. And, I tell you this If the CIA director can't cover up mistakes NOBODY CAN. Clinton put the budget in the BLACK, that's a FACT. Bush is pushing for the BIGGEST budget deficit in history, taking first place from who? well surprise, surprise, Bush senior. Even Greenspan PUBLICLY scolded Bush on his upcoming budget policy!
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted February 18, 2003 10:02 PM
http://www.fas.org/man/docs/fy00/historical/hist01z1.xls
http://www.fas.org/man/docs/fy00/historical/hist01z2.xls
http://ssdc.ucsd.edu/gpogate/budget00/hist.html
if you look at the budget numbers themselves, and percentages, the current budget proposal has a high dollar figure for the number of dollars defecit, BUT percentage OF the budget is lower than some in the last decade, not at all 'record breaking'
i agree, we need to have balanced budget, and we need to reduce taxes
we also need to cut the crap out of the budget. there are too many special interest lobby programs that get too much public cash. too many 'subsidies' that are esentially handouts.
get rid of the crap that is not for the public as a whole, and you would be amazed at how much extra there would be
and i am serious about hte public as a whole thing too. if a certain thing in budget only helps a certain select people, then dump it. the federal govt, even in loosest terms,w as NEVER meant to be used to support small groups of people.
PS why don't our esteemed 'leaders' take a pay cut....why don't THEY encourage by action frugality and wise use of money? power is everything to many many politicians
im afraid though that we as a nation won't find this out until it is too late, securein our beliefs that the democrats or the republicans won't take our freedom from us. but alas, BOTH parties have done JUST that.
try getting the text for the patriot act II, heck even theones VOTING on it can't get it all. if it is as screwed up as patriot act 1, then we are truly in a world of hurt. what amazes me is the bipartisan support for that bill. amazingly, it is not because of 9/11 and some desire to do the 'right thing' to 'protect our citizens' but because these selfsame people have been attempting to gainthis power for decades, and fianlly managed to get it by sneaking it in when the people weren't watching.
ever heard of the bill of rights? half of them are null & void if someone gets mad at you and calls the homeland defense minstry and reports you as terrorist. Just like the ATF does already with gunowners, they can do to ANY citizen. unlawful search and siezure, due process not required. freedom of speech is gone, since if what you say pisses them off, thenyou are obviously a terrorist trying to undermine the efforts to protect the American subjects.
while democrats are busy calling republicans evil environment detroyers, and warmongers. and while republicans are calling democrats socialists, tax & spend & spend more, the ones who are losing are the ones who used to be citizens of this nation, but who are now subjects of the imperial federal government
food for thought: ever wonder why the word 'democracy' has started popping up? the USA is NOT a democracy. it never was, and was never intended to be. a democracy was as foul to the framers as a dictatorship.
but...those who beleive otherwise and are inpower want this idea to spread, the USA is not a democracy, it is a republic of democratic states.
the intent and origins were that the states elected their officials to represent their interests in the government.
no matter the 'popular' vote, the states chose the leadership.
it is still true today, but due to the democracy rhetoric, you are left with people who falsely beleive that the popular vote IS what truly counted. it DOES matter, but it is not nearly as instrumental as the democracy criers want it to be. yet...
i don't recall if it is this thread or not, that someone mentioned cutting trees down affecting the world's oxygen supply. but i will repy here to that as well.
forests are about even for CO2 use and O2 production. the undergrowth and decay uses up oxygen as fast as the local fuana produce it. the main oxygen source and main CO2 absorbtion are relegated to the life that lives inthe upper few feet of the oceans.
as far as forests disappearing, there are more acres of forest land now then there were in 1900. this includes old growth, and new growth in tropical forests.
do we use too much paper? wood products? oil? who defines too much?
do people as a whole waste stuff? yup. human nature. it is easier to toss something then it is to fix it our recycle it.
we are ALL guilty of this, i know of NO-ONE who can claim they have never thrown out something that could have been re-used.
yes, we can make differences in the environment, but know this, it is utter hubris to think that our little existance is detroying the planet.
one single volcanic eruption threw more pollution, gases, and CO2 into the air then man has EVER put there in mankind's entire history. somehow the planet survived, it and MANY MANY others like it, and we have orange sunsets which are really cool to look at.
some of our waste IS longer term, but then again, it is concentrated from stuff that already existed. radioactive waste IS a concern, especially if it is handled improperly. but funny thing is that environmental groups would rather it stay at ground level exposed to the elements, then to put it somewhere it can be safer. it is almost like they WANT these things to spill so they can shout "i told you so!!"
it is funny though, alll of the radioactive waste from power production is still less than fossil fuel burning for the same power, it is also concetrated in one spot vice distributed accross the land for miles and miles (excepting the few cases like TMI and Chernobyl) we know where that radioactive waste is, just noone will let us deal with it.
politics is like religion, everyone has their own beliefs etc etc etc
i can agree to an extent on that, and yes, there are many views
but the bottom line is this: Does the government person you support consider themselves a servant to the people? Do they uphold the constitution THEY pledge and swear oath to uphold? Do they do things that remove individual freedoms from people, of ANY group? (ie raise prices due to legislation to prevent certain classes of people from owning certain things?)
if you are not a shooting sports enthusiast, and don't care if the 2nd ammendment is ignored, when WILL you get concerned? whenthe 1st starts to take a hit? the 5th?
look close, look hard. the things that made America great are being forced out in a sea of noxious political correctness.
playing he-said she-said he-did she-did is a waste of time, it is past. LEARN from the past, but don;t dwell there. look ahead.
determine: do i want to pay taxes for _________ project? ask yourself this: Would *I* give money to this person to do this of my own volition?
if it is something that you can not honestly answer yes to, then consider this: "Why am i allowing someone else to take my money and give it to this person anyway? Is this person defending my rights? or performing some public service that i benefit from?"
i think community is stronger than the govt. or should be. i think family is stronger than anything, or should be. If you cannot rely onyour OWN BLOOD then who CAN you rely on?
a rather cynical, but apt statement i have heard: "do not appeal to a person's sense of decency. You may find he has none. Instead appeal to his own self interest. you will find this to be a much more reliable appeal"
what do these people expect to accomplish? is it truly for the public? or a select few?
perhaps i have an overly simplistic view. but reality is this: if you must rely on someone else to look after you, that makes you a SLAVE. in whatever context. if you depend on someone, you are enslaved to them. period. you are dependent on their whims, their time, their good graces. it may work out for now, but eventually, it WILL bite you.
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted February 18, 2003 10:03 PM
Just reading on Yahoo.com that Turkey is asking for 10 billion dollars from us, as a gift. If they give us access to their country for our military. 10 BILLION DOLLARS. Shit, we should offer Hussein 5 billion to leave Iraq & be done with it, he might take it. If all you HAWKS out there are so aching for a war, just think how much it will cost. For getting 1 crazy motherf'er. Can't we just send some navy seals, & sniper that SOB?
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Dino
Pro
Posts: 1422
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posted February 18, 2003 10:41 PM
I better get my new bike soon or I'm gonna' have to start ragging on you liberal minded,moronic,clinton loving,nonsense spewing, fucking PINHEADS!!!!........(c'mon swft)
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uh oh
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted February 18, 2003 10:42 PM
... some folks cant handle the truth
I could not have said it better myself.
Vincent, I believe I can honestly claim that I might have more DIRECT and PRESONAL experience with the Clintons as well as their political and campaign staffs, then anyone else here. In his run against Congressman John Paul Hammerschmidt in '74, JPH was our company's client, as well as a long time friend of my family. Two years later, it was Congressman Hammerschmidt who awarded my Congressional appointment to the U.S. Air Force Academy (which I fucked up... another story).
After that loss to JPH, our company was directly involved with Clinton's political campaigns from his 1976 campaign for state Attorney General, all of his races for governor, and his '92 presidential campaign (the national campaign headquarters was here in Little Rock).
Some of the folks I have worked with over the past 25 years include...
Hillary Rodham - BEFORE she added "Clinton" as her last name (she started using it after the 1980 loss to Frank White)
Betsy Wright - Governor's Chief of Staff and "Campaign Consultant/Manager" (she coined, "Bimbo eruptions" - if anyone could stand up to Hillary, Betsy could 'cuz she was one tough ass bitch)
Thomas "Mac" McLarty - Former head of ARKLA Gas/White House Chief of Staff
Webster Hubbell - worked at Rose Law Firm/Associate U.S. Attorney General
Vincent Foster - worked at Rose Law Firm/White House Chief Council
David Watkins - owned local ad agency/Director of the White House Office of Administration
Roger Clinton - Bill's half brother
Charlie Trie - owner of Fu Lin's restaurant (2 blocks from my office and the state capitol)/DNC fund raiser
David Hale - former Judge/Banker
L.D. Brown - Former State Trooper on the Governor's staff
Dan Lasater - Arkansas businessman/bond underwriter for the state
Jim & Susan McDougal - Madison Guaranty (we did work for both Castle Grande and Whitewater property developments)
... and I could go on all night.
I didn't just "see" these people or talk to them once or twice... I WORKED WITH THEM! Not just during the elections, but through out the years. Read what you want and say what you will, but I know for a FACT that very few, if any, here can say that they have spent anywhere close to the amount of time with them that I have.
I can go dig up the proposals, bids, orders, delivery slips and invoices for all of it. I know what the people are like when the eyes of the media and public were not on them. From the first campaign headquarters in '76 to the Old State House and Excelsior Hotel in '92.
Nothing personal, but if you can claim such a familiarity, I'll be more then happy to listen. If not, I can only assume that you and moodyblue are just "stating facts" in a manner that you have selectively chosen to repeat. I could take your list and politely address each statement, but rather then bore everyone, I'll just address the first one.
Clinton went to England and furthered his studies (BTW, it's "Rhodes" Scholar, not "Rogue" - Freudian slip, I'm sure)
I won't bother to go into the aspects of his failing to fulfill the requirement to maintain the scholarship awarded to him by the late Arkansas Senator J. William Fulbright (also a client of our 45 year old company). I'll just acknowledge that he did go first to Oxford on the Rhodes Scholarship and remained their afterwards.
This is a letter Bill Clinton wrote to director of the U of A at Fayetteville ROTC program, Lt. Col. Eugene Holmes, in December of '69. If you take the time to read it, I believe it will not only give you insight on his trip to England, but give others here an idea of his views toward our military, that he carried all the way to the White House.
December 3, 1969
I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have had to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing, about what I want to say.
First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind and decent to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing which made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC.
Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked for two years in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working everyday against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did.
I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans for the demonstrations Oct. 15 and Nov. 16.
Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form."
From my work I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation.
The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example, where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.
Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.
The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years. (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are finished anyway.)
When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I have been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School because there is nothing else I can do. In fact, I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use.
But the particulars of my personal life are not nearly as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program itself and all I seemed to have done was protect myself from physical harm. Also, I began to think I had deceived you, not by lies because there were none but by failing to tell you all the things I'm writing now. I doubt that I had the mental coherence to articulate them then.
At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1-D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of self-respect and self confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally on Sept. 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.
I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I had deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of this second year of my Rhodes scholarship.
And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling you this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.
Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lot more to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Col. Jones for me.
Merry Christmas.
Sincerely,
Bill Clinton
If you feel that this letter is fabricated or in some way altered, I can just as easily produce the affidavit concerning it's accuracy and authenticity. All I gotta say is if ya'll knew him and his "associates" (your only as good as the company you keep, ya know?) for the eighteen years I have, your opinion might not be so "glowing".
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted February 18, 2003 10:51 PM
I say "25" at the start and "eighteen" years at the end is because when the '96 election came around, it seemed that the "Bill & Hill Show" forgot there was an "Arkansas". Even the state campaign headquarters didn't spend a single dime in this state. Hell, most of it's staff wasn't even from here.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted February 19, 2003 04:10 AM
i thought about posting that same letter, but decided that i would just be called a naysayer who had an agenda.
which i sorta do, i want my children and THEIR children to enjoy the SAME level of freedoms, at the least, that i did. i do not want to raise them in a nanny litigation state.
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted February 19, 2003 04:56 AM
They'll spin it one way or another Red, liberals always do. They condemn people who do things they do themselves and just plain lie when confronted with the facts. Thanks for sharing the letter.
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It's a free country brother
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted February 19, 2003 05:20 AM
quote:
... some folks cant handle the truth
I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working everyday against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam.
Vincent aka "Vinny Vin" , how do ya like "Slick Willy" now??? Face it man, he's a piece of draft dodging shit. I still cannot believe some of you retreads putting this disgrace of an American on a pedestal. The average wino has better morals than this guy.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted February 19, 2003 06:24 AM
People keep putting down Clinton, OK. But How about telling us all the good things Bush jr. has done for the US. Before or after he became president. The list is kind of short, huh! I know he's NOT balancing the budget or even trying for that matter. He sure does not spend money conservatively, at least when it is NOT his.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted February 19, 2003 07:34 AM
quote:
i thought about posting that same letter, but decided that i would just be called a naysayer who had an agenda.
Acually, I do have an agenda. Another person I knew, but did not mention was Johnny Lawhorn, Jr. Just do a web search on this "unknown" and see what you get. I can tell you many more FACTUAL details on the "results" you will find. It was no "accident". Is my view "tainted by friendship"? Most likely. But the "circumstances" and how they were addressed is a lot more the "questionable", I assure you.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted February 19, 2003 07:39 AM
http://www.povn.com/sandlent/clinton/
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It's a free country brother
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vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
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posted February 19, 2003 07:45 AM
papa was a rollin stone?
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VOZ
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted February 19, 2003 07:52 AM
Here's a statement.........
quote:
http://www.povn.com/sandlent/clinton/
I'd much rather hang out with Bartina than Clinton.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted February 19, 2003 08:35 AM
I have been reading this thread with amusement due to the overall cluelessness up til now. Let me throw in a few tidbits for y'all to munch on.
#1:The overwhelming majority of politicians in BOTH parties are self serving and want reelection over anything else.
#2: The power brokers in BOTH parties tack billions of self serving pork onto the budget every year.
#3: The White House doesn't spend the money. The president does his best to influence what the appropriations bill will contain and then has to sign whatever he thinks is his best bet. Realistically, he has to sign something eventually whether he likes it or not.
#4: There is nothing inherently wrong with a national deficit. Most of us have been operating under a deficit since we bought our first house.
#5: Our government (yes, it still belongs to us) is so full of waste that even if a politician, or better yet a party, had the balls to really try a remedy it may be too far gone. But don't worry, BOTH parties will only pay lip service to the massive waste of our tax dollars.
I wish none of this were true, I wish someone could prove me wrong. But it ain't gonna be the Republicans or Democrats. (Disclaimer: Yes, I used to be a politician but I was different. Please don't flame me.)
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If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
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