deathpulse
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posted January 14, 2003 08:10 PM
BMC vs. K&N'?? Final verdict?
OK guys. I'm stupid and I need things spelled out for me. I have K&N filters in my trusty 'ol '12 now. I've been reading on all the '12 forums that the K&N's may actually REDUCE horsepower a bit  . Not good. Is this true? Should I replace the K&N's with a BMC race filter? I'm looking for a good HP gain (I know its only a few - but every little bit helps) with a decent amount of protection (like stock). Suggestions?
Thanks guys.
  
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MadMike
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posted January 14, 2003 08:25 PM
Umm. I think the record has skipped again........
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted January 14, 2003 08:49 PM
lol...I hear ya Mike.... Pulse do a search we just had a very extensive discussion on this very topic just a few weeks ago....brief overview if I recal correctly is this: the K&N filters do not reduce hp. In fact they have been known to give hp gains, but very small amounts....but the filtration factors alone ,ake thm worth buying....I am sure that if I am incorrect in reciting the ingo here one of the other board members will in fact correct me.....Jim
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redelk
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posted January 14, 2003 09:02 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 14 Jan 2003 21:10
Or you could just make your own. Motorhead made mine before there was even a filter from K&N or BMC available. Using a stock '00 12R for the OEM vs. Modified comparison on his DJ250 dyno, he said...
"2.4 RWHP and 3.5 ft/lbs. everyhere. Bike was hot, so I'd say it's probably more like a 3 to 3.5 RWHP increase. The torque increase of 3.5# is from 4300 to 9200 RPMs."
I've used these filters since 5/4/00 and put over 35K+ miles on them. A month after putting them in and installing my pipe, I put it on a local DJ150 and pumped out 174 RWHP. Of course, that was on a number happy DJ150. Still, I have had ZERO problems with dirt or anything else getting past them.
Below is a pic of the OEM (left) and the MH filters (right).
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted January 14, 2003 09:26 PM
good Idea there Pastor, I already got the K&N's...I ran 154.3 stock hp, am having some things done to the bike while I am here...it has a Muzzy stainless header with a TI can, pcIII, K&n filters, and a 2 degree advance...gonna put it on the dyno when I get home and see what i get, am hoping for 170hp....I think I should be close...With going down one of the front sprocket it should come out of the corners nicely.....hehehehe
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deathpulse
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posted January 14, 2003 09:37 PM
Sorry guys, I read the posts a few weeks ago, but I was too stupid to figure out what the consensus was  . I think INeed to buy a dyno. That way I can see before and after with both the K&N and BMC filters and stock modified filters. hmm... how to pay for it...hmm...
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted January 14, 2003 09:47 PM
cant go wrong, not gonna make great power.....worth the money IMO
I dont think that there will be a big difference in the BMC or the KN
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entropy
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posted January 15, 2003 01:40 AM
quote:
Umm. I think the record has skipped again........
you are right, Mike, but I don't think anyone has answered the most important question yet:
SHOULD YOU USE SYNTHETIC OIL ON THE FILTERS OR NOT???
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 15, 2003 04:51 AM
Cotton gauze airfilters work because they ARE oiled. The oil is like fly paper and the dirt is like flys. The cotton filters transfer the oil to the dirt and the dirt itself then becomes stickey so the filters filter better and better. Cotton airfilter oil isnt synthetic because it doesnt have to be. The requirement is stickeyness not resistance to coking like in a 450 degree turbo bearing.
A paper element works because the particulates are larger than the porosity of the paper. Thats what makes paper more restrictive.
I'm shure some of you guys have dirtbikes and use that super stickey gooey messy airfilter oil. That stuff goes one step further because of the extremely dirty conditions.
About a year ago my buddy Bill did some testing with different oils using a well broken in "test mule" engine (350 chevy) on a DTS dyno. First the filters were washed and dryed and tested on the flow bench without any oil. The flow rates were noted for a base number. Yes they did flow slightly different. They were 14"x4" K&N's. Then different oils were tried. He tried about a dozen types and weights of oils and measured the results on the dyno and then the flow bench. There was significant differences in flow rates on the dyno and it showed similar results on the flow bench. It was well controled. The filters initially were stripped of excess oil with a 10 minute 80% throttle run to "clean" the filters. Just for the reccord they "cleaned out" very quickley. Just a few minutes and they were stripped of excess oil.
There is several HP differences in the oils used. Amaizingly enough one of the best oils was a light machine tool oil. The K&N airfilter oil was good also. (gee I wonder why)
Dont even try using a dirtbike foam airfilter "oil". It was very restrictive as expected.
Of course none of this measures the filtering ability of the oil. That would be an extremely difficult test to control. But i would expect that there would be differences in the "catching" abilities as well.
I'll can get more info on the different oils performance if anyone would like to see it.
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redelk
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posted January 15, 2003 06:32 AM
Y2K, I would.
DP & HDL, the "trick" to the filters that Dennis made for me is really pretty simple. He just gutted the frames of the OEM filters and glued in two layers of UNI pre-filter foam in each frame. Then he sprayed a good amount of K&N filter oil on each side and allowed it to soak in.
Most folks would think that pre-filter foam would be WAY TOO "open" to effectively stop small particals and maybe even let some larger trash pass through as well. I have coated the inside part of my airbox with a thin layer of oil, just to see if there was anything getting past. My testing might not have been perfect or all conclusive, but the lack of any dirt when I wipe off the oil on inside the airbox does give me personally, enough proof that they are effective in trapping dirt and debris.
I will admit that there was one problem. After dozens of cleaning over time, the glue holding the foam in the frame did start to break down and it has required reglueing in a few spots... ONCE!
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magzx12r
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posted January 15, 2003 08:33 AM
I read on one of the boards that the BMC Race filter may give you a little boost over the K&N's and that the race filter was ok for street use also.
As far as timing advance, try 4 degrees vs 2 degrees (mine is somewhere between 4 - 5 deg). May give you a little more hp.
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Mark
'03 ZX-12R
'12 1199S
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted January 15, 2003 10:38 AM
ok Mag......not a bad deal for the price Pastor......cant beat it....I use the K&n oil for all my K&n filters, I just figure ya cant go wrong that way....
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 15, 2003 01:28 PM
Red, I like many on here had grit in the airbox/frame with the stock airfilters. Like i said in another post I live on a 1/2 mile dirt road so my bike gets 1 mile of dirt road riding EVERY time itI ride it. I have had NO grit in the airbox/frame sence I installed the BMC "race" filters.
So I'm convinced they filter better than the stockers.
I've heard the same of the K&N's.
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RAC4IT
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posted January 15, 2003 02:08 PM
If you are looking for more power dont waste your money on any aftermarket filter. If you want a quicker ET spend the money on practice at the track! If you ride on dirt roads, keep the stock filter. If you dont simply remove the element and keep only the screens for maximum airflow.
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ZHooligan
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posted January 15, 2003 02:18 PM
I am living prove of Bergie's answer above. My et stays the same regardless of the horsepower!!  The runs just become more undulated and goofey looking!!! 
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 15, 2003 06:10 PM
Actually RAC4IT, the screens are more restrictive than the foam on the stockers.
You get higher flow numbers if you remove the screens and leave the foam than removing the foam and leaving the screens. I tested them both ways in june of 2000 on a Super Flow 110 flow bench.
And the stockers let grit thru and the BMC,s dont. So I have to disagree with those statements.
I agree with the practice thing thou. All the power in the world wont do any good if you cant get the bike off the line.
Z, same here. I'm not a skilled drag bike guy at all.
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redelk
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posted January 15, 2003 06:18 PM
One thing is for sure, the are potential risks in making your own filters that are not a factor with buying a K&N or BMC. If the "homemade" filters are not poperly assembled, the costs could easily be much greater then that of buying an aftermarket filter. FAR greater.
For as much as it appears that the OEM filters would block (including airflow), one would think that they would stop grit and such from getting into the airbox. It's obvious that through the experiences of hundreds here, airflow is about the ONLY thing they restrict.
If I were switching from the OEM filter today, I wouldn't be too concerned on which brand I got, just which brand I could get the quickest and at the most reasonable price. The differences between the two seem to be so minute, that it really doesn't matter.
As for making your own, you better have a "basically clean" riding enviroment. I don't ride on any dirt roads, in town and rarely in the rain. So I can not make any claims on how well my filters would preform in such conditions. They might work just fine and then again, it could be a problem. Which would kinda suck since you would have gutted you OEM filters to make the new ones and couldn't just switch back to what you had.
With aftermarket filters, you still have that choice.
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deathpulse
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posted January 15, 2003 06:38 PM
Well, I've already got the K&N's, and I just got a quote for $150 bucks!!! (JEEEEZ) for the BMC's AND I drive on a dirt driveway (its about a 1/4 mile long too!!) - SOOOOO I'm stickin with the K&N's I think. Thanks guys!
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MadMike
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posted January 15, 2003 09:59 PM
bergie I honestly can not believe you said that! man what the hell is going on around here! are aliens taking all of the people I know........ I saw a 4 HP increase using K&N's, ran a dyno, changed them +4, changed them back -4! I am totally sold and I cant see running without them! Maybe it is me... shit maybe I should take a couple of weeks off of the boards! I dont really know.
Mad Mike
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Megabyte
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posted January 15, 2003 10:14 PM
Ditto, exact same #'s w/BMC race filters.
quote:
bergie I honestly can not believe you said that! man what the hell is going on around here! are aliens taking all of the people I know........ I saw a 4 HP increase using K&N's, ran a dyno, changed them +4, changed them back -4! I am totally sold and I cant see running without them! Maybe it is me... shit maybe I should take a couple of weeks off of the boards! I dont really know.
Mad Mike
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted January 15, 2003 11:10 PM
hp or not I am sticking to my K&N I have been using them in everything I own for many years, and am not about to change now......
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TurboBlew
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posted January 15, 2003 11:34 PM
Dude have you been smoking crack? Have you looked closely at the screens?? The foam element is a good filtering media when oiled properly. THe screens just restrict flow...period.
quote:
If you are looking for more power dont waste your money on any aftermarket filter. If you want a quicker ET spend the money on practice at the track! If you ride on dirt roads, keep the stock filter. If you dont simply remove the element and keep only the screens for maximum airflow.
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mrsantafe
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posted January 16, 2003 01:13 AM
I posted a while back that kn's lost 3hp just like m boehm from motorcyclist. I did back to back dyno pulls to prove this!! It's still up to you though. Everyones got theories, I do not intend to flame any of them. All I presented were the facts on my bike. Good luck!!
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2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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entropy
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posted January 16, 2003 03:11 AM
DAMN!!! Y2k is a veritable fount of info!!!!
I was kidding about syn vs dino oil on filters...
BTW, since I run pretty much only on 1/4 mi, I sprayed my filters (K&N) with brake cleaner, then vacuumed them dry.
quote:
Cotton gauze airfilters work because they ARE oiled. The oil is like fly paper and the dirt is like flys. The cotton filters transfer the oil to the dirt and the dirt itself then becomes stickey so the filters filter better and better. Cotton airfilter oil isnt synthetic because it doesnt have to be. The requirement is stickeyness not resistance to coking like in a 450 degree turbo bearing.
A paper element works because the particulates are larger than the porosity of the paper. Thats what makes paper more restrictive.
I'm shure some of you guys have dirtbikes and use that super stickey gooey messy airfilter oil. That stuff goes one step further because of the extremely dirty conditions.
About a year ago my buddy Bill did some testing with different oils using a well broken in "test mule" engine (350 chevy) on a DTS dyno. First the filters were washed and dryed and tested on the flow bench without any oil. The flow rates were noted for a base number. Yes they did flow slightly different. They were 14"x4" K&N's. Then different oils were tried. He tried about a dozen types and weights of oils and measured the results on the dyno and then the flow bench. There was significant differences in flow rates on the dyno and it showed similar results on the flow bench. It was well controled. The filters initially were stripped of excess oil with a 10 minute 80% throttle run to "clean" the filters. Just for the reccord they "cleaned out" very quickley. Just a few minutes and they were stripped of excess oil.
There is several HP differences in the oils used. Amaizingly enough one of the best oils was a light machine tool oil. The K&N airfilter oil was good also. (gee I wonder why)
Dont even try using a dirtbike foam airfilter "oil". It was very restrictive as expected.
Of course none of this measures the filtering ability of the oil. That would be an extremely difficult test to control. But i would expect that there would be differences in the "catching" abilities as well.
I'll can get more info on the different oils performance if anyone would like to see it.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 16, 2003 03:15 AM
Mrsantafe, Its entirely possable to loose power by adding airflow.
Lets just say you were on the lean side of the scale for whatever reason. Now you lean the A/F ratio out even more. And there goes some power.
The zx12r seems to like to be on the rich side more than the lean side. Power falls off quicker if things get too lean alot more abruptly than if you are running rich. At least thats my expierience with this engine.
Did you have a map made or at least try fussing with the buttons?
This may get the lost power back and then some. Every bike is different.
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