zxlnt
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posted January 10, 2003 10:25 AM
 Edited By: zxlnt on 10 Jan 2003 10:27
Problem with Oil Expander ring 1270 Kit
I goto install my cylinders for my 1270 last night and find what appears to be a problem with the oil expander rings. The compression rings slid up into the cylinders just fine, but when we got down to the oil scraper rings the cylinders just hung up. Tried a couple differnt times to get the cylinders down over the pistons but everytime we got to the scraper rings it would just hang. Looking from underneath I could see where it was trying to peel the rings out from the ring lands. It looks the expandeder ring is just little to big in diameter. That forces the scraper rings out against the cylinder wall. You can see from the picture how much of an overlap there is on the end of the expander rings. The expander ring in the picture was just slid down into the cylinder and u can see the overlap on the ends. They should fit flush just end to end not have an overlap like that. When I tried to fit the ends together it just made the ring bind up and hump up in the middle. My dealer emailed Muzzy last night, so waiting to hear back from them.. Shouldn't be a problem I dont think getting them to take care of it.
  
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kcadby
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posted January 10, 2003 11:37 AM
Edited By: kcadby on 10 Jan 2003 11:44
Didn't even finish reading your post yet but...I ran into the same thing with the 1361 I built...
Called Muzzys...didn't get to talk to anyone "directly in the KNOW" (was put on hold while they asked a tech guy) but was told..."Put it together as is"...I did just that and...all is fine...210.6hp 118.7lbs
Was NOT fun getting the cylinders on with that kind of tension on the rings though 
I DID end up putting just the oil ring on a piston and getting it into the block (off the motor/on the bench) just to make sure that it was "possible"...NOT fun at all...the hardest to assemble top end (cylinders/pistons) that I have ever done...
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rs
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posted January 10, 2003 11:47 AM
Had that problem on an 80 GS1100 that I had to rering. Was informed that I needed to file the expansion rings down until the ends fit flush. Did that and it smoked like a train. New set of rings with the expansion ring ends overlapped and everything worked great.
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kcadby
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posted January 10, 2003 12:02 PM
I explained that to someone that told me to file the expander...you'd have to file it all the way back to "the next hump" for the ends to mate properly...THAT just ain't hap-nin...
One more time...was NOT FUN AT ALL getting the oil rings in the cylinders but...have had NO PROBLEMS with the motor...
SEVERAL people that have ridden with the bike have told me it runs STRONG 
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zxlnt
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posted January 10, 2003 12:18 PM
I think there is too much overlap. We couldn't get the oil rings into the cylinders on 2 of the pistons. It just peeled them out of the ring lands.
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VincentHill
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posted January 10, 2003 02:16 PM
I also said not to remove the end because the expander may try to squeeze up on the other ens and stick a ring
I suggested that if this is it, and no new rings are coming, to take a set of small needles and "Slightly" squeeze the top and Bottom of the loops 180 degrees (Directly across) of 2 tops and bottoms and if it is still too tight, doe a top and bottom 90 degrees away on both sides 1 top and 1 BottomI am talking about 10 to 20 thousands total!
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kcadby
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posted January 10, 2003 03:45 PM
zx...
That's a good picture and...it looks like the SAME amount of overlap that I had...
Trust me when I tell you that I thought the expander HAD TO BE WRONG but...after LOTS of Sweating (in an air conditioned shop) AND lots of Foul Language We DID get the block on...and the motor turned over (with a wrench) with the same amount of drag that I'm used to feeling on any new motor...
I thought about sqeezing the expander as Vincent suggests above but, decided to try to assemble the motor one more time first...it DID go together...
Took the longest time ever (for me) AND a HUGE amount of patience...but it DID go together...
We kept moving the pistons (side to side and rocking a bit) to make sure they weren't "jamming" in the bores and...I swear ...we DID get the block on with rings like yours...
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MadMike
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posted January 10, 2003 04:22 PM
Yes mine were the same and trust me on this It was a Huge deal to get them in!!! and I bent one so I had to order a new one!! I tell you what I am ordering the Kawi, piston installer's before I do it again!!!!
they fit but it was a bear!
Mad Mike
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dougmeyer
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posted January 13, 2003 04:06 PM
XLNT,
There is nothing wrong with your rings. The oil expander is designed to butt together and assume a radial preload when compressed into the diameter of the cylinder. The rails keep this spring in place and force it into the compressed position when they squeeze down to the cylinder. Never overlap or shorten an oil ring expander- this takes away or alters the necessary spring tension. Do not confuse this design with some other oil rings that have small "teeth" that interlock at the ends. This is just a differently designed spring that does not incorporate this feature. You might ask why not use a solid ring like the first or second ring to provide the tension, after all they have a radial spring action without an expander. The reason is that the oil ring needs to have a path for the oil that is scraped off to pass through the skirt and back to the crank case.
As far as the installation- yup, it's a bitch. But once you get the hang of it it's a lot easier. Problem is each of you guys (hopefully) only have to do it once. I've done it lots and here's the way I personally do it. I put 2&3at TDC and position the first two ring gaps to the left and right of center as you face the front of the engine. I put the oil ring EXPANDER gap on the back side and the rail gaps on the front side in the center, slightly offset. I place the cylinder down onto these two pistons with the rear side much lower than the front and "roll" the cylinder onto the pistons allowing the gaps to be fed and compressed by hand in plain sight, the oil being the last to go. Since the gaps are in plain sight you can ensure that they do not peel out.
After 2&3 are both in, I lower the cyl. onto the rising numbers 1&4. I do these the same way. It's harder of course, and an extra pair of hands would help, but I never seem to have those around. I do not concern myself with the relative location of the gaps. The rings always turn on the pistons anyway, so why bother?
Take your time and if you'd rather be somewhere else- go there.
Doug
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zxlnt
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posted January 13, 2003 04:36 PM
Wow I have just never seen that much, or really any overlap on an expander ring before. Most all I have seen pretty much just butt end to end when fit into the cylinder. That pic you see is with the expander ring pushed against the inside of the cylinder as far as it will go, taking all the slack out of the ring. It overlaps as shown. So your saying that amount of overlap is normal then?
Thanks for the reply Doug, its appreciated!!
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dougmeyer
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posted January 13, 2003 04:53 PM
Well, now that you explain it that way, I'm not so sure. Here's the way I'd check it. Butt the ends together and push the ring flat with the piston crown. It should compress without much trouble. I just went out into the garage and put an expander into a cylinder. I couldn't get it to look like your photo and still have it fully in contact with the cylinder wall. If I butt the ends together first, I could get it to compress and go "flat". I tried a stock ring in a stock cylinder and it had no tension at all, it wouldn't stay there by itself, but it's a different design.
Try that---
Doug
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zxlnt
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posted January 13, 2003 05:12 PM
If I try and butt the ends flat together it makes a little hump like a roller coaster in the ring. That ring in the pic is laying flat on a compression ring. Then I spread the ring out into the cylinder so that it was pushed against the inside of the cylinder you get an overlap. If you butt the ends you get a little hump where the ring is trying to bunch up.. It just acts like the ring is one little hump toooo long..
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dougmeyer
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posted January 13, 2003 06:16 PM
You may be correct. I was skeptical 'cause I've never seen this. But there's always a first time for everything.
Important: Are all 4 expanders identical?
Doug
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zxlnt
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posted January 13, 2003 06:20 PM
Yes doug they are.
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VincentHill
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posted January 13, 2003 07:54 PM
Doug, you just made me feel better! I have not seen this either. I told him to call JE or who ever the manufacture is?
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dougmeyer
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posted January 14, 2003 10:27 AM
If these are the rings originally sent with the Muzzy 1270 kit, you cannot source them anywhere other than Muzzys. I spoke with Curt at the office and he'll have swom direction for you. Please call him again.
Doug
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zxlnt
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posted January 14, 2003 12:29 PM
Yes they are the original rings. I will get my Muzzy dealer. Thanks Doug.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 17, 2003 07:05 PM
XLNT,
It's my understanding from Curt at Muzzys, who has been working with your dealer, that upon further checking the rings look to be correct.
Everybody happy?
Doug
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VincentHill
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posted January 18, 2003 05:09 AM
Is it that way with all of these Kits, or just this one?
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kcadby
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posted January 18, 2003 11:22 AM
I TOLD YOU (Just kidding...not givin a hard time  )
I did the same thing...put the piston in a bore with ONLY the Oil Rings on it...
TIGHT but it DOES go in...
As stated above...it will NOT be fun getting the block on but...it IS worth the trouble when you turn the throttle WFO...
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dougmeyer
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posted January 18, 2003 03:22 PM
Vincent,
The ring pack on the Muzzy 1270 kit has been the same since it was introduced two years ago. Some mechanics are not comfortable with the care needed assemble these light, small rings without a ring compressor. We are the only ones using these rings, which are sourced in Japan and we feel the better sealing and non-flutter characteristics of these rings is well worth the extra care needed when assembling the kit. This is one of the reasons the 1270 kit works better than some of the slightly larger kits.
Doug
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VincentHill
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posted January 18, 2003 04:44 PM
I have never needed (Up to now) A ring compressor. I have used a piece of Plastic to poke the rings around until in. Looks like (As usual) I may be buying some "MORE" tools . It just looks like there would be more wear and friction this tight and actually scrape "ALL" of the Oil away and not leave anything! Notta!! Even the Film!
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entropy
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posted January 19, 2003 12:52 AM
quote:
... This is one of the reasons the 1270 kit works better than some of the slightly larger kits.
Doug
You are subtle, Doug, subtle...
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dougmeyer
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posted January 19, 2003 09:56 AM
Vincent,
They are not tight at all. Matter of fact they may be slightly on the "low tension" side. The difficulty in installation arises from the fact that the oil rings are narrow and thin, not "tight". This wasn't really clear in the above discussion. Don't worry about it, just work slowly and carefully.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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VincentHill
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posted January 19, 2003 01:36 PM
Perfect! I really understand "Thin" problems! Very easy to snar or slip out of the Groove!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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