Shane661
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posted July 21, 2010 12:51 PM
You know...overall...the bottom line is: HP=heat. I don't think that even Doug will argue that. 
  
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2000redrocket
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posted July 21, 2010 01:00 PM
i think he is saying the bikes he helped / built made lots of over stock heat and they did not have a issue that was not forseen.
so for a good heat question my 440 block was filled half way up the cylinders for support. would that make it run cooler with less area to soak up heat?
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dougmeyer
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posted July 21, 2010 08:04 PM
quote:
you know blown, turbo or stroked and boored should take the same horse power to go the same mph on the same road and i will add with the same wind or lack of wind. and is not power really btus the rad has to actually shed minus thermal losses out of the cases?
i can see a zrx with 350hp wide open with the little rad for the whole run at the salt over heating maybe cause my bike had a real small rad. the 12s is huge. i wonder how many btus it is designed to shed though with increased air flow it should increase the ability to shed.but there someware has to be a limit. i think if you over heat at normal to sort of normal playing speeds which should not be more horse power used than it did stock you got something wrong or needing sorted out.
don i am glad your bike seems solid.
a friends bike was running hot and i noticed his idle was way high. back down to 1000 and the cooling fan would do its job. go on then go off.
Red, you are exactly right.
As for your block fill, it depends on what you filled it with. Most of the stuff I've used is quite an insulator so I'd expect to see the cylinders have some unequal heating and maybe some shape problems but the coolant temp shouldn't go up appreciably.
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smokinZX14
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posted July 21, 2010 08:48 PM
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2000redrocket
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posted July 22, 2010 01:41 AM
grout filler. they screwed it up putting it in one side not wet and it did not flow down and blocked up the passanger side. i had to plum a hose to the back to get water to head. but i am glad it was there cause it poped a ring land on #3 and cracked the liner 5" long. no filler and i bet it would of went through the block.
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Shane661
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posted July 22, 2010 07:16 AM
quote:
you know blown, turbo or stroked and boored should take the same horse power to go the same mph on the same road .
Yeah, that applies to steady-state cruising. But not with acceleration, where the bike can clearly be making more power with the larger motor. I mean, it is ludicrous to try using a steady-state cruising speed as an example when applied to street riding.
As I said, and everyone seems to agree...HP=Heat. The engine cannot help but produce more heat when it is making more power (all things else being equal). And, it is safe to presume that most people build a high hp motor to ride it in such a way as to exploit that added hp.
Shane
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2000redrocket
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posted July 22, 2010 01:42 PM
yes shane . i agree but most do not use all the "new found" btus except for maxton and the salt or dragracing.i know you guys have a special place to go flat out like i do here.
go ahead and really think how long a guy riding on the street really is putting out more than stock horse power. even you who can tax a cooling system as god as anyone else or better.
how long can someone on the street really keep the 350+hp busa making 350+ horse power yet alone over the i guess 175hp on say a 50 mi ride?
there has to be a point when the stock rad can not shed the heat. but on a street bike around here you would be dead if you decided to have your bike put out its full horse power for longer than a short time.
now for the formulas for figuring how to size a heat exchanger for btu load.
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Shane661
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posted July 23, 2010 02:42 AM
quote:
yes shane . i agree but most do not use all the "new found" btus except for maxton and the salt or dragracing.
I just don't agree with that, Dennis. Otherwise we would all have 250 Ninjas for streetbikes.
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dougmeyer
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posted July 23, 2010 10:54 AM
Shane, go ride around for a while and tell me what percentage of the time you are at 100% throttle.
Better yet, You got data on your street bike? Start recording W.O.T. I've looked at hours of data- street, roadracing, dragracing and LSR and only on drag and LSR are there a majority of 100% throttle time periods. Even on Roadrace, everyplace but tracks like Daytona, periods of 100% are not the majority of TPS readouts.
Thank you, Red, for stating the obvious. You brought us back to the start of this discussion after Shane's interesting and circuitous but erroneous journey.
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Shane661
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posted July 23, 2010 11:49 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Jul 2010 21:32
quote:
Shane, go ride around for a while and tell me what percentage of the time you are at 100% throttle.
Better yet, You got data on your street bike? Start recording W.O.T. I've looked at hours of data- street, roadracing, dragracing and LSR and only on drag and LSR are there a majority of 100% throttle time periods. Even on Roadrace, everyplace but tracks like Daytona, periods of 100% are not the majority of TPS readouts.
Thank you, Red, for stating the obvious. You brought us back to the start of this discussion after Shane's interesting and circuitous but erroneous journey.
Doug, honestly...you are being ridiculous.
Now you are implying that the big bore/stroker won't make any more power unless you have it at 100% throttle?
Honestly, are you stating that?
You are also stating that as long as you ride the bike in such a way as to not exceed the hp of the stock displacement engine, you won't produce any extra heat. And I say, who the hell builds one of these motors to ride it around like a saint? I have a 1287, and I romp on it just as hard as I did the stock motor...but it goes a lot faster. Do you think it is producing the same hp and heat as a stocker? As stated before, your constant-throtte/stead-state cruising example would be valid...if that were the way that the engine were operated all of the time. But, obviously, that is not the case in real-world conditions.
I am stating that when the motor is producing more hp, it is making more heat. There is nothing more basic than that.
I don't consider your position so much a journey, as it is a dance. 
Shane
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dougmeyer
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posted July 23, 2010 02:30 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 23 Jul 2010 22:30
This is the question that was asked in the 4th post of this thread:
How reliable is that 1270 muzzy kit for street riding. Does it over heat easily in traffic?
And THIS is my original answer:
Fellas,
The size of your engine has NOTHING to do with engine temps in traffic or at anything less than full throttle. In fact higher compression engine will run slightly cooler coolant temps. Heat and HP are proportionate. You are only creating the heat from the amount of power you are demanding and part throttle or idle outputs do not change based on engine size. if you retard the timing, you can create extra heat at low throttle openings, but you have to go way back on the timing, actually at or after TDC to do that.
Now I THINK I'm still correct and that you've finally agreed with me.
Anybody care to comment?
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Shane661
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posted July 23, 2010 03:23 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Jul 2010 23:46
Again, I ask you, are you serious in stating that the larger engine will not produce any more power at anything less than 100% throttle? So, at 80% throttle, given any two engines of equal valve area, cam specs, and throttle body size...power output (and therefore heat output) will be identical, from idle to redline, regardless of displacement? Please clarify, justify and explain.
You must be losing your mind if you think that I am agreeing with you.
Shane
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dougmeyer
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posted July 23, 2010 06:13 PM
Nooo I'm saying that at a given instantaneous, not steady state, power output (in BHP, not %throttle) the heat output will be the same regardless of bore/stroke. That's what I've said all along. Nothing more or less. The point being, again, that the statement that big engines (bored and or stroked) run hotter, is false.
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smokinZX14
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posted July 23, 2010 07:29 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 24 Jul 2010 03:32
These are fact based on my very own 500 cid motors .. Stock block 440 bored .060 over and a 4.150 stroker crank . Stock stroke is 3.750 ... Stock bore is 4.320 ... Using a stock 440 69 dated block with a 0.60 bore will leave or hope to leave .090 + wall on the thrust side .. I ran this motor for two years with no problem but for cap walk on the mains .. 440 two bolt mains have this problem when reaching 650 to 700 hp .. This motor always ran warm , i had to run the fans all the time .. The motor warmed up very fast in the pits or staging lanes.. I had to do a lot of cool down between rounds and make sure my temps were down before my burnout and staging .. Because of the Cap walking ( not the heat ) i changed to a Mopar Mega block with cross bolted mains .. This block can also be bored 4.500+ if needed ... I only bored it to 4.380 so i could reuse my pistons from the other motor .That left me with super thick cylinder walls unlike my stock block ..I swapped everything from the old motor to the new motor ... I made no other changes other than the thicker/ stronger block ....This motor runs so cool i have to leave the fans off till after my burnout .. No coolling needed between rounds ... Fact is it ran so cool i started driving on the street and i would never do that with the old block .. Both blocks were machined at the same shop , both were done with block plates and both were aling honed and studded .. I'm sure you will say it was my block that was a problem , but i have done this with many stock block 440s as well as the new Mega blocks with the same outcome ..
A motorcycle block is no different , if you make it thinner it will put more heat in the coolant .. You add stroke like a 4 mill the piston will make more fiction on the cylinder walls because it has to travel more .. The stroker crank will add more heat to the oil because the crank will see more oil because of it larger rotation at the very same RPM .
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Shane661
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posted July 24, 2010 04:43 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 24 Jul 2010 12:45
quote:
Nooo I'm saying that at a given instantaneous, not steady state, power output (in BHP, not %throttle) the heat output will be the same regardless of bore/stroke. That's what I've said all along. Nothing more or less. The point being, again, that the statement that big engines (bored and or stroked) run hotter, is false.
Ok, so you are now saying that the larger motor might very well make more power (heat) at partial throttle. Your only statement of merit, it seems, is that given equal power output, the two engines will produce equal btu's of heat. I think that is a given, and obvious.
So we have, in the big bore/stroker:
1) An engine that produces more power (heat) at WOT.
2) An engine that produces more power (heat) at an equal throttle position.
3) Increased efficiency of heat exchange to the coolant, due to increased surface area of the exchanger.
I am sure you enjoy the debate, Doug. But I think you have really painted yourself into a corner with this. Your only valid statement is that equal power produces equal heat. But, as you have even agreed, the larger motor can very well make more power and heat, even at partial throttle.
That additonal heat is what we are talking about. It is real, it is there.
Your statement is best summed up as such:
"As long as you don't ride the bike in a manner that will create added hp (heat), your total heat output will be the same."
However, that still does not address some prior mentioned issues regarding the increased surface area and efficiency of your heat exchanger. In basic terms (Simple Wikipedia Stuff):
For efficiency, heat exchangers are designed to maximize the surface area of the wall between the two fluids, while minimizing resistance to fluid flow through the exchanger.
Even given equal heat, the distrubition of the heat will be changed. You have altered the variables in the equation for heat exchange.
What exactly are you disputing, Doug?
Shane
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biggmoinc
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posted July 24, 2010 01:21 PM
with all this heat n hp issues, can a 2000 zx 12 owner get a 2nd fan on his bike courtesy of kawasaki recall, i mean, obvious the mistake was made with one fan on the 00-01 cause they ended up coming out wit 2 for the later years, (was this a recall)loll
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biggmoinc
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posted July 24, 2010 01:25 PM
Edited By: biggmoinc on 24 Jul 2010 21:28
plus would a richer map closer to idle produce lower heat than say a 13.5afr? Moreover, could it be cause my 12 hunts real heavy at idle, will this make the water pump move so slow as to restrict the flow of the coolant? She hunts anywhere from 800- 1400, whomp.......whomp............whomp.........lol, My 12 had heat issues prior to the 1270!!!! And i banged hard on them both!!!!!!!! But once in traffic it seemed the 1270 would already b up in temp, also i would think u wouldnt have to bang all out at high rpms cause the built motor is also putting out more torque in the 7500 rpm range than a stock motor so that in turn should produce more engine temp right? Not just high rpm 175+ hp
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07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
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2000redrocket
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posted July 24, 2010 01:36 PM
you need to get someone to try to tune some of the hunt out.
my stocker is only hunting 300 rpms and idle is at 1000 and the fan comes on and then goes off. so stock wise one fan is working like it is suspose to.
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Phantom13
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posted July 24, 2010 02:02 PM
And so it continues....
KZScott... Refill please!
Thank you kindly, Sir.
This thread delivers!!!!!
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before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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KZScott
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posted July 24, 2010 06:19 PM
lots more where that came from lol
Bigmo, its not a recall, you would need to change your frame, head, and motor mounts to use the 02 dual fans, or make something low pro to fit in there.
so far ive noticed my 1380 runs hotter than my 1287 did(by no means too hot), but i raised the CR from 13:1 to 13.7:1, and Ive been breaking in new rings... still needs to be tuned, so it shouldnt run as warm later on
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biggmoinc
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posted July 25, 2010 04:43 AM
wow, guess i will only be using 1 fan then, lol
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07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
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Shane661
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posted July 25, 2010 04:47 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 25 Jul 2010 12:50
Schnitz Racing has a universal kit for adding a 2nd fan, not sure if it will work or not.
http://www.schnitzracingstore.com/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=5132807&showprevnext=1
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biggmoinc
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posted July 25, 2010 06:18 AM
shane, why werent u at mirock last weekend?
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07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
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aliveagain
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posted July 25, 2010 06:19 AM
I keep thinking of radiators in the home.Years ago, they use to be cast iron thick radiators. Now they use thin walled copper tubing with fine aluminum fins that extract more heat from the internal source. Granted it is a different application but I keep thinking the principal is the same.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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Shane661
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posted July 25, 2010 06:20 AM
quote:
shane, why werent u at mirock last weekend?
I was there Friday for the seminar, but my 12 & 14 were at home. Neither is ready to ride right now...
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