Shane661
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posted June 25, 2010 01:19 PM
quote:
10 to 25 more hp only at wide open throttle though, right? You were indicating more heat at stoplights.........
Does your bike run any hotter while riding or racing while you are asking it for that extra power?
Do you think it might put out more power (heat) "between" lights? 
  
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dougmeyer
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posted June 25, 2010 04:48 PM
Not unless we're RACING between lites!
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
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posted June 25, 2010 05:37 PM
quote:
Not unless we're RACING between lites!
That's the way we roll, baby! 
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
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posted June 26, 2010 06:50 AM
quote:
10 to 25 more hp only at wide open throttle though, right? You were indicating more heat at stoplights.........
Does your bike run any hotter while riding or racing while you are asking it for that extra power?
I understand your theory and what your trying to get across. Real life though the bigger motor puts out more heat even under normal riding conditions. My stock cooling system was not able to handle it. The bike make 112hp in stock form. It's now up to around 180 hp and 101 ft-lbs. The stock radiator was fine with the 155hp stock bore build. Once I added the bore and stroke, better cooling was needed even for normal riding. I can feel the thermostat open quite often by the hot air hitting my legs. At the track I used to be able to hot lap 3 times with no issues. With the big motor and larger radiator I limit it to 2 passes before a long cool down.
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KZScott
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high on speed
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posted June 26, 2010 12:50 PM
 Edited By: KZScott on 26 Jun 2010 21:15
i missed a page...
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted June 26, 2010 12:58 PM
quote:
Real world. I did an 2x4 on my ZRX motor. First build was same CR and same head package. The bike went from hardly ever having the fan come on to the fan coming on at every stop light. Installed larger radiator and now no problems.
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dougmeyer
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moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted June 26, 2010 03:49 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 26 Jun 2010 23:56
Just to be clear, I don't have a "theory", you guys do. But, you know, I got to thinking about this, and I wonder what your theory might be on this:
Remember this bike?
http://www.sportrider.com/features/146_0502_kawasaki_zrx1200/index.html
It's the blown 200 hp ZRX that Richard Sims and the team at Muzzys built. You will note when reading the story that I spent many hours riding that bike on the street to get the injection mapped. I never experienced anything other than normal cooling. Also, you will note that at no time during the whole magazine test was there any mention of overheating on this 1224 cc (Uh Oh, thinner cylinders) supercharged, stock radiator equipped bike.
Which reminds me of Gadson's Turbo ZRX that I tuned and worked on. That was 375 hp. We were able to hot lap it. Stock Radiator. Oh and THAT reminds me of Rickey's Turbo 12. That also a stock radiator. You could drive that one around all day.
Just got me thinking.....
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted June 26, 2010 03:53 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 26 Jun 2010 23:58
quote:
Just to be clear, I don't have a "theory", you guys do.
That's pretty funny, and arrogant as well...nice.
Now, apparently even compressing the intake charge (HOT) doesn't even add heat! Wow! What is this, absurdist humor??
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted June 26, 2010 04:05 PM
But seriously...if you rode the bike around all day like you were afraid of it, off-boost...I guess it could run as cool as stock. Otherwise, you know as well as everyone else...compressing air creates heat....
I can hardly even believe this thread... 
Shane
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted June 27, 2010 07:24 AM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 27 Jun 2010 15:32
quote:
i missed a page...
KZScott: At least you didn't run out of popcorn like me! =)
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"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted June 27, 2010 08:18 AM
ready for round 4 
got one for you too Mike
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted June 28, 2010 12:29 PM
You think if Kent Kunitsugu had noticed a heating problem hot lapping it the dragstrip or riding it around he wouldn't have maybe mentioned it?
FYI, there is no "off boost" with a mechanical supercharger. They pretty much idle with boost which is why they are so cool, and in a stock wheelbase blown ZRX, you'd better be careful and respectful once you get over being scared.
Just to re-stir the pot a bit, my broader point is that the stock cooling systems on our bikes are incredibly effective (given air flow through the radiator) and almost nothing any of us are doing should create a tendency to get uncomfortably hot or overheat, and certainly nothing as trivial an a mm or two thinner cylinder wall.
Pass the butter.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted June 28, 2010 12:39 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Jun 2010 20:52
quote:
You think if Kent Kunitsugu had noticed a heating problem hot lapping it the dragstrip or riding it around he wouldn't have maybe mentioned it?
FYI, there is no "off boost" with a mechanical supercharger. They pretty much idle with boost which is why they are so cool, and in a stock wheelbase blown ZRX, you'd better be careful and respectful once you get over being scared.
Just to re-stir the pot a bit, my broader point is that the stock cooling systems on our bikes are incredibly effective (given air flow through the radiator) and almost nothing any of us are doing should create a tendency to get uncomfortably hot or overheat, and certainly nothing as trivial an a mm or two thinner cylinder wall.
Pass the butter.
...and I guess my point is that the engines do produce more heat.
Regarding the mechanically supercharged example...well, yes, it always produces boost. How much boost does it produce if you ride it like a little old lady?? You were mentioning a big Turbo or two as well. "FYI".
Romp on a turbo between lights and you better have than fan switch handy. We have such a bike, and I know the scenario well. For your next trick, will you attempt to magically eliminate the heat produced by compressing air?
The debate isn't whether the cooling system can handle some more heat overall...the point is that more heat is being generated. Which you seem to admit.
I don't really care too much about magazine articles, honestly...they are not there to inform...they are designed to generate revenue.
Shane
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dougmeyer
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posted June 28, 2010 01:50 PM
No......, the thread is about the premise that increased coolant temperatures can be caused by larger displacement due to bore and stroke increases, regardless of power demand, which has no basis in fact or concept.
I will never deny that your engine may be hotter than you'd like, only your suppositions as to why.
Your turbo isn't located just under the radiator, is it? Just wondering.
Oh,and please be clear, has this discussion entered the level of personal judgment regarding riding skill and the ability to turn a throttle? Because, I would never question your skill in that area and I can't believe you would question mine.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted June 28, 2010 01:55 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Jun 2010 22:22
quote:
No......, the thread is about the premise that increased coolant temperatures can be caused by larger displacement due to bore and stroke increases, regardless of power demand, which has no basis in fact or concept.
I will never deny that your engine may be hotter than you'd like, only your suppositions as to why.
Your turbo isn't located just under the radiator, is it? Just wondering.
Oh,and please be clear, has this discussion entered the level of personal judgment regarding riding skill and the ability to turn a throttle? Because, I would never question your skill in that area and I can't believe you would question mine.
Doug, you are making up the rules as you go. More power = more heat is the bottom line. And it is much easier to produce both with a larger engine, turbo, or supercharger.
How much you twist the grip, in this case at least, is not pointing towards skill level. It is pointing towards an individuals "style" of riding on the street. Have I not mentioned the "dynamic" nature of street riding?? Seriously, let's not get sensitive and/or paranoid.
Tell me more about how compressing air doesn't add heat to the engine....I'm all ears. Also, may I assume that those cool-running turbo's you mentioned were also located just under the radiator??
Shane
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dougmeyer
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posted June 28, 2010 06:00 PM
Of course they were, which is why you needed to get the fan on sooner, because the bottom tank on the rad gets heat soaked and the rad can't shed the heat load as effectively.
Where did I say charge heating didn't matter or exist?
In any case, I'm getting bored with boring everyone with this.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
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posted June 29, 2010 11:48 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 29 Jun 2010 20:10
I think it has all been spelled out pretty well. More power = more heat. I haven't seen anyone dispute that here.
I think we can put this topic to rest. It's been fun, and I would like to think that everyone saw some benefit from the debate. I tend to think that we both understand what each is saying, but we have different perspectives and notions about how these notions play out on the street. 
Shane
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dougmeyer
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posted June 29, 2010 07:14 PM
That's a fair assessment.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Rock4173
Novice Class
Posts: 43
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posted June 30, 2010 08:57 AM
Its not over is it? I've been well entertained the last few days. I'm gonna miss it.
Thanks,
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donzx12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
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posted July 19, 2010 05:14 AM
ok got bike fired made sure had map set right went from -5 % to 35 % took bike out on a 100 mile ride runs the same temp as it did before stock. its 1380 cc with 220 cranking comp with big cams was 100+ deg here in ca. no over heating at all.still has stock fan. just real live data temp gage did not go over 1 bar from half
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted July 19, 2010 05:18 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 19 Jul 2010 13:31
How is it in traffic? Around town? How many miles on the engine now?
What is your a/f at now compared to before? +40% more fuel is a lot.
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donzx12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
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posted July 19, 2010 04:28 PM
just put 100 miles on it 30 in town wet to 3/4 on gauge setting at stop lights stop and go then went down to 1/2 or just below just like before. going to get 200 more this week will let u know.dyno next week c if she can pull 220.
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Shane661
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posted July 19, 2010 04:30 PM
It will be interesting to see how it does when you get some miles on it. 
What is the a/f ratio compared to before? Like I say, 40% more fuel is a LOT. DId you change exhausts also?
What was the setup before the new build?
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dougmeyer
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posted July 21, 2010 10:33 AM
It's never over.
Here's one thing I didn't mention and that may have shown up here. An initial rise in temp on a fresh build is not uncommon until the rings come in due to the much increased friction on the cyl. wall from the fresh cross hatch and fresh rings. This usually just results in a rapid rise after start and then a leveling as the thermostat opens up and goes away in an hour or so.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 21, 2010 12:45 PM
you know blown, turbo or stroked and boored should take the same horse power to go the same mph on the same road and i will add with the same wind or lack of wind. and is not power really btus the rad has to actually shed minus thermal losses out of the cases?
i can see a zrx with 350hp wide open with the little rad for the whole run at the salt over heating maybe cause my bike had a real small rad. the 12s is huge. i wonder how many btus it is designed to shed though with increased air flow it should increase the ability to shed.but there someware has to be a limit. i think if you over heat at normal to sort of normal playing speeds which should not be more horse power used than it did stock you got something wrong or needing sorted out.
don i am glad your bike seems solid.
a friends bike was running hot and i noticed his idle was way high. back down to 1000 and the cooling fan would do its job. go on then go off.
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