donzx12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
|
posted June 14, 2010 05:55 AM
zx12 big bore stroker
need help with maping to get started its a 1287 ape kit with a 4 mill crank . im in ca. just need a map to get running till i get on dyno
  
|
biggmoinc
Zone Head
Posts: 747
|
posted June 14, 2010 06:43 AM
I got a baseline map for a 1270
____________
07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted June 14, 2010 08:32 AM
If you pm your emaIL address to me, I can send you mine off a 1426 with degreed stock cams. I just received it from the tuner so I can forward it to you.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
kawiman
Expert Class
Posts: 119
|
posted June 14, 2010 11:40 AM
How reliable is that 1270 muzzy kit for street riding. Does it over heat easily in traffic?
|
biggmoinc
Zone Head
Posts: 747
|
posted June 14, 2010 01:52 PM
I've had it in the bike for 10,000 or so miles, n the only issue is the bike runs a little hotter, i run engine ice and water wetter. Sittin in the beach traffic is rough on the bike as far as heat but i have my hazard light switch hooked up to turn the fan on so i keep it on to prevent overheating when i'm in the traffic, As far as reliability i dont seen any difference with the 1270 or the stock motor, the stock motor also would run hot in the summer beach traffic as well. I took the front cowl that covers the header off to allow more air to circulate, if u do get it done, definately get the head n cams done, this is something that i didnt really do to much to and as a result the 1270 is under power compared to the others, IMO u will be very pleased with the 1270/head/cams! IF done right u could say u have a 14 in zx12 clothing
____________
07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
|
donzx12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
|
posted June 14, 2010 06:06 PM
my motor is 13.5 comp port head big cams
|
donzx12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
|
posted June 14, 2010 06:29 PM
1426 whats the bore and stroke of that . is it dependable.how do u keep it cool.do u have dual fans
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted June 15, 2010 02:16 AM
87X60mm It was a daily rider until I stroked it. Then I started having problems with sealing issues.I conceded to higher knowledge and let the professionals handle it. Cometic requires a certain smoothness for their gasket and My head and cylinder were lapped in. I run only one fan with it being a 2000A1.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 18, 2010 05:00 AM
Fellas,
The size of your engine has NOTHING to do with engine temps in traffic or at anything less than full throttle. In fact higher compression engine will run slightly cooler coolant temps. Heat and HP are proportionate. You are only creating the heat from the amount of power you are demanding and part throttle or idle outputs do not change based on engine size. if you retard the timing, you can create extra heat at low throttle openings, but you have to go way back on the timing, actually at or after TDC to do that.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted June 18, 2010 07:01 AM
quote:
Fellas,
The size of your engine has NOTHING to do with engine temps in traffic or at anything less than full throttle. In fact higher compression engine will run slightly cooler coolant temps. Heat and HP are proportionate. You are only creating the heat from the amount of power you are demanding and part throttle or idle outputs do not change based on engine size. if you retard the timing, you can create extra heat at low throttle openings, but you have to go way back on the timing, actually at or after TDC to do that.
How is this possible Doug? If the cylinder walls are thinner, isn't more heat getting transferred to the coolant?
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 18, 2010 10:22 AM
The point is that there ISN'T any more heat to transfer. If your cylinder walls are 220F while you're cruising down the highway at 70 mph (which requires about 30 hp) it matters not how "thick" they are because they are stabilized at that temp. The heat transfer rate is dependent on the "delta" or difference between the two temperatures, "cold" side and "hot" side. The greater the difference, the greater the speed of transfer, not the degree of transfer.
HP can be expressed in BTU's or units of heat just as easily horsepower, and unless you are above the "original" or stock hp level, you have not added any heat load to the cooling system. If a stock cooling system cools under certain ambient air conditions, it is not being asked to do any greater amount of cooling until you are producing more power than the stock level.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
donzx12
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
|
posted June 18, 2010 11:42 AM
got the map thanks.bike ran hot before so is there any way to cool them down.man. fan switch. dose the muzzy fan help.
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted June 18, 2010 12:01 PM
I have the Muzzy fan on my bike. I thought there might have been issues with the plastic fan melting,plus I believe the Muzzy may have a different pitch.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted June 18, 2010 01:14 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 18 Jun 2010 21:20
quote:
The point is that there ISN'T any more heat to transfer. If your cylinder walls are 220F while you're cruising down the highway at 70 mph (which requires about 30 hp) it matters not how "thick" they are because they are stabilized at that temp. The heat transfer rate is dependent on the "delta" or difference between the two temperatures, "cold" side and "hot" side. The greater the difference, the greater the speed of transfer, not the degree of transfer.
HP can be expressed in BTU's or units of heat just as easily horsepower, and unless you are above the "original" or stock hp level, you have not added any heat load to the cooling system. If a stock cooling system cools under certain ambient air conditions, it is not being asked to do any greater amount of cooling until you are producing more power than the stock level.
If you are saying that the thinner walls will not allow quicker and more efficient transfer of the heat that the engine produces...well, I simply don't agree with that. 
In addition, I think it is not coincidental that nearly every bore bore or stroker motor seems to run warmer by owner accounts. I doubt that everyone has air in their cooling system. At some point, well...reality intereferes with the best scientific data. 
Of course, I am sure that you would argue that if everyone rode the bike around "just like a stocker" that there would be no difference. Well, when you merge on the highway, and pin the throttle on a big motor...well, so much for it running just as cool as stock, right? It just produced a big load of heat and power.
Also...who builds one of these motors to drive it in such a way that it doesn't produce more power than stock??
Shane
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 18, 2010 04:14 PM
Here, try this approach.... And by the way, this isn't opinion, it's centuries old physics. You can "not agree" just like you can believe that you can turn lead into gold, but that doesn't make it any less an accurate representation of basic heat law physics.
Heat transfer occurs, by definition, when heat flows from a location of greater heat to a location of lesser heat through some medium or material. Each and every material, liquid, or gas has the ability to absorb and transfer heat from hot to cold. And yes, there is a time factor involved but this related to the material more than the amount of it. But here is the real point - the discussion was about overheating in traffic. In a given engine design, you are not producing any more heat in traffic or at any point other than max power regardless of engine size. The only additional heat you are producing is only being produced by the ADDITIONAL power. If your stock cooling system will keep your bike cool under any given atmospheric condition while producing say, 175hp and you put in a 1270 and now are able to produce 190hp, you need only worry about the additional heat produced by the additional 15 hp. No big deal. Your cooling system is designed to handle a much greater spread than that. And remember, only a relatively small percentage of heat produced by the power production goes into the cooling system. HP=HEAT, and 99% of the time you are using less than that additional amount of heat your modified engine is capable of producing.
Regarding your example of the WOT merge, well, is that when your modified engine overheats? I don't think so.
Do any of us experience overheating while making top speed runs at 200 hp? No, we experience it putting around town producing less than 40 hp.
It is almost NEVER the combustion to water portion of the cooling cycle that results in high temperatures and it is almost ALWAYS the water to air portion that is inadequate.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted June 18, 2010 04:49 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 19 Jun 2010 00:51
I am sure you know that most people's results do not match yours regarding the operating temperatures of big 12R motors (or even stroker motors, big bores in general) during street riding.
Carry on.
Shane
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 18, 2010 07:19 PM
Oh, I've seen plenty of "results". The "results" are not uncommon. It's the causes you don't understand. But don't take my word for it. Do a little research on your own. Or better yet, show me where I'm wrong. Explain the results to me with the science to back it up. Educate me. I'm always willing to learn.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
chavcat
Zone Head
Posts: 524
|
posted June 19, 2010 02:40 AM
Doug is absolutely correct. Think about the situation/environment in which a engine 'overheats' eg. family car in traffic vs on the highway or an F1 car waiting on the starting line vs in the middle of a race.
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted June 19, 2010 03:15 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 19 Jun 2010 11:27
quote:
Oh, I've seen plenty of "results". The "results" are not uncommon. It's the causes you don't understand. But don't take my word for it. Do a little research on your own. Or better yet, show me where I'm wrong. Explain the results to me with the science to back it up.Educate me. I'm always willing to learn.
In the modest amount of research I have done, it is apparent that changing the bore and stroke do affect the thermal efficiency of an engine. It is also apparent that these motors do produce more power (heat) under normal riding conditions. It is further apparent that frictional aspects change when you alter the bore and stroke of the engine. Thinner cylinder walls and a larger heat transfer surface will change the amount of heat that is transferred. Even if the total amount of heat produced is the same, it will not be dissipated in the same manner.
Additionally, it is apparent that the cooling system can only remove a finite amount of heat at any given coolant flow, ambient temperature, and airflow condition. Keep a bike parked and hold the throttle steady at 8k rpm. Then we can see just how well the "175 hp capable" cooling system dissapates the 100 hp of heat that the engine is producing.
I work with many heat exchange systems on a daily basis. While I may not be an engineer, nor as book smart as you Doug, I do the see the real world operation of such systems. Perhaps a specialized engineer can better explain to you why a thinner cylinder wall and greater surface area will allow for enhanced heat transfer to the cooling system. I guess that same engineer can also better explain to you why an engine that is using more air and fuel (at an equal ratio), is making more power (heat).
After said engineer explains this in excruciating detail, then we can get back to where we are now. The vast majority of these big engines do run hotter than their stock displacement counterparts.
Shane
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted June 19, 2010 03:35 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 19 Jun 2010 11:39
quote:
Think about the situation/environment in which a engine 'overheats' eg. family car in traffic vs on the highway or an F1 car waiting on the starting line vs in the middle of a race.
I understand that. My statement about merging at WOT was taken somewhat out of context. It was made in order to illustrate the dynamic nature of the engine's power (heat) output.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 19, 2010 03:59 AM
Shane, the reason the system heats up when you hold a high rpm with the bike static is because there is no airflow. It's the liquid to air side...
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted June 19, 2010 04:03 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 19 Jun 2010 12:21
quote:
Shane, the reason the system heats up when you hold a high rpm with the bike static is because there is no airflow. It's the liquid to air side...
As I said in my above post:
quote:
Additionally, it is apparent that the cooling system can only remove a finite amount of heat at any given coolant flow, ambient temperature, and airflow condition.
Is it not fair to say that if you can't remove the heat on the liquid to air side, that can create an "overheating" issue? Again, don't lose site of the big picture here. I am trying to simply illustrate that saying you have a cooling system capable of dissipating "175 hp" worth of heat does not begin to cover the dynamics at play.
Shane
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted June 19, 2010 04:16 AM
I've always heard the bigger motor 12s having more issues with heat although the 12 seems to struggle in bumper to bumper with bleeding off excess heat.
For the author, I would recommend ditching your lower fairings...it will help with keeping temps lower for just putting around town. No top end runs though, mmmkay?
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted June 19, 2010 05:53 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 19 Jun 2010 13:53
I can say that my 1375 (stock block) stroker that I rode for almost 10,000 miles and then my 1427 (Muzzy block) did not run any hotter than the stock engine. And I had a stock fan on it. 70% water 30% EG and a few ounces of water wetter.
It could sit and idle for ever on a 80 deg day. The fan would keep the gauge at 9 o clock. Once in a while at an idle right as the fan kicked on it would go up one tick higher briefly and would then stay at 9 most of the time.
I have to agree with Doug here, its just basic physics.
Its true that a stock zx-12 and a 1427 zx-12 cruising at 70 mph on the highway produce the same hp and heat. The hp required to move the bike at 70 mph doesn't change.
However the 1427 would have a smaller throttle opening to achieve the hp required to move the bike at 70 mph. However the volume of air and fuel are the same.
Now if you were running the stock bike at WOT and it was doing 190 mph and the 1427 at 190 mph side by side they would be producing the same amount of heat. The stock bike cant make the power to go to 210 mph but when the 1427 zx12 starts to pull away and go faster than the stock bike its now and only now producing more btus of heat/HP and is now taxing the excess capacity of the stock cooling system.
But as Doug said at speed there isn't a cooling issue because the airflow thru the radiator is excellent. Its in traffic situations with low airflow thru the radiator that all cooling systems whether a car or a bike etc. are having a harder time removing BTU's from the coolant thru the radiator.
As far as heat transfer. as Doug said the weak link it the water to air part of the heat transfer process. It is on race cars etc. In boats with unlimited cooling from a lake or ocean the this problem is eliminated.
I have heard several people claim that thinner wall cylinders will run hotter and will make less power. This is not true.
Something interesting...
In the 1990's when GM was designing the LS family of engines they developed new processes to produce a better more true cylinder. On older aluminum V8 engines the cylinders needed to be thick due to core shift and to guarantee cylinder rigidity. This allowed for over boring of up to .06" or more on most blocks. Well these new processes on the LS family of engines allowed them to make the cylinders MUCH thinner. They use an iron liner as before and the block is aluminum. This doesn't allow more than a .005" overbore now, but the cooling of the engine was improved while maintaining better cylindricity and concentricity of the bores even with a thinner wall.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted June 19, 2010 06:38 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 19 Jun 2010 14:45
.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC