Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 14, 2010 02:49 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Feb 2010 22:50
From Kevin Cameron's book:
Buy it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Sportbike-Performance-Handbook-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760331839/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266187535&sr=8-1#noop
Ok, that's it! No more theory! 
Shane
  
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 14, 2010 04:06 PM
Iv'e got the book. I'm looking forward to getting the data from y2k. Along with my own. Just off the top of my head if the airbox lacks volume I can relocate battery.10 to 15 percent more power is worth it. Maybe even design new runners, better than the Hans snorkel which logged less pressure than stock.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 14, 2010 04:10 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 15 Feb 2010 00:11
quote:
Iv'e got the book. I'm looking forward to getting the data from y2k. Along with my own. Just off the top of my head if the airbox lacks volume I can relocate battery.10 to 15 percent more power is worth it. Maybe even design new runners, better than the Hans snorkel which logged less pressure than stock.
You are not going to get 10 to 15 percent more power by altering your ZX-12R airbox.
But that's just my opinion.
I would focus more on optimizing what you have through accurate data logging, trial, and error.
Good luck with it.
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted February 14, 2010 07:19 PM
You know, a $300 dry nitrous kit does a splendid job in the zx12 airbox IMO.
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 15, 2010 08:17 AM
Kevin Cameron claims 10 to 15 percent increase in power at certain rpm ranges in his book. Time will tell.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 15, 2010 08:33 AM
The part I am confused about is intake pipe length.
Is this pipe length the distance from the tip of the snorkel to the frame inlet? If so, it woul require a substantial design change in order to optimize the airbox resonance for a different rpm.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 15, 2010 09:19 AM
You are correct. From my notes on a v twin example: To Raise air box frequency by 10% you can A) increase inlet pipe area by 21% or decrease airbox volume by 21% or decrease inlet pipe length by 21%. It has some elements of velocity stack tuning. Long stacks low to mid, medium length stacks mid range, and short stacks for top end.
Recommended inlet snorkel area is 300 to 800 square centimers. Anybody measure the inlet on an A model or B model?
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 15, 2010 09:26 AM
Based on how the formula works ( I'm totally guessing ) it appears the Hans Snorkel didn't work because by increasing intake pipe area in the snorkel and runners he decreased the resonant frequency by not lowering the airbox volume to compensate.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 16, 2010 09:19 AM
Psycho's Data:
Supra and entropy, this should clarify some of my original findings......
All information in this test was obtained from a digital volt meter paralleled with the Inlet Air Pressure Sensor, page 2-63 in the Kawasaki Service Manual and a DJ 250 Dynometer.
Dyno Day Voltage Readings;
HOME/GARAGE 3.54 vdc = 28.92 in./14.206 psi. (ambient)
DYNO ROOM 3.52 vdc = 28.73 in./14.109 psi. (ambient)
*note: .02 drop due to elevation increase.
Idle on Dyno 2.75 vdc = 21.12 in./10.3745 psi.(1200 RPM)
*note: every .01 vdc = .0485 psi.
R.P.M./W.O.T.
2000 " 3.51/ = 14.106 p.s.i.
4000 " 3.49/ = 13.964 "
6000 " 3.46/ = 13.8185 "
8000 " 3.40/= 13.5275 "
10000 " 3.35/ = 13.285 "
11000 " 3.34/= 13.2365 "
The stock snorkel on the road at any speed above 40 mph at W.O.T. voltage always comes within .01 vdc of ambient but never above(at any speed). This indicates a "BOOST" of .824 p.s.i. over static (dyno readings).
1 inch of water equals 2.49 mb. At 11,000 rpm's that equals 32.94 millibars. Good starting point.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 18, 2010 05:24 AM
quote:
Based on how the formula works ( I'm totally guessing ) it appears the Hans Snorkel didn't work because by increasing intake pipe area in the snorkel and runners he decreased the resonant frequency by not lowering the airbox volume to compensate.
Hans did not work due to the Intake "mouth" being too large. The incomming air flow has to speed up to pass through the two airbox inlet pipes. We want the airflow too slow down to recover ram pressure.
Interesting how the Hans works good on a Dyno in a static environment. It allowed more airflow when the engine was drawing from a vacuume environment (airbox).
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 20, 2010 11:10 AM
Kuchemann Diffuser
Doc Bréguet-Devillers
The role of the fairing is to facilitate the slowing down of the air at the face of the radiator, to increase static pressure to overcome the pressure drop across the core, and to use pressures on the internal and external walls to reduce the overall drag of the assembly.
Those points are common to any internal flow systems. The primary task of the designer is to avoid any flow separation.
Diffuser
Doc Küchemann & Weber
It is the most important part of the duct. It comprises a diverging portion (not funnel shaped) in order to slow down the airflow without causing any separation.
According to Bernoulli's law, slowing air with no separation raises the static pressure. The presence of the radiator aft of a well designed diffuser renders flow separation still less likely.
The gain is twofold : the increased pressure facilitates the passage through the core, and this pressure on the diverging walls of the diffuser results in a forward force, opposing the drag of the core.
Doc Rebuffet
The external shape of the diffuser is also important : the air which does not enter it flows around it. With no flow separation, the air acceleration around the lip and front portion of the diffuser results in an additional forward lift force.
It is thus possible to counterbalance most of the radiator drag.
It has been shown that the diffuser efficiency is key in the reduction of the overall radiator drag. It is the most critical part, and unfortunately the most frequently botched by homebuilders.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 21, 2010 04:56 AM
Our 12's utilize "Diffusion Cooling"
Cool Eh?
To no suprise, our 12's have a VERY good Ram Air system. The best thing to do is to find all the leaks and seal it up tight.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 21, 2010 12:09 PM
There is only 1 problem I see. The resonators might separate the air lower the pressure.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 21, 2010 12:14 PM
"Might".
Start logging some data, and then you will know.
Theory only goes so far...let's see some practice.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted February 21, 2010 02:06 PM
remember, one change at a time, the scientific method
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted February 21, 2010 06:38 PM
I need a stock set of intake ducts. I cut the resonators off 3 years ago and sealed them. I need the stock one to make a comparison.
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JOHN-DYNOSTAR
Parking Attendant
ZX12R owner
Posts: 7
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posted March 25, 2010 07:44 PM
Edited By: JOHN-DYNOSTAR on 26 Mar 2010 03:46
Hi guys
lost my log in and then didn't bother for a while sorry
I have been watching this thread with interest.
then the other day a customer came in the shop with a manometer strapped to his Honda
cb1100x the blackbird we call it over here.
he had the u of the pipe stuffed down the centre spindle in the steering yoke.the two tops of the pipe strapped to the corners of the fairing,and a board with measured increments tie wrapped to the two pipes.one end connected in the airbox between the filter and intake stacks
he's 60 od years old but has an enquiring mind.he runs a turbo hayabusa as well.
anyway he showed me where the fluid went up to on the u bend RH pipe at 100mph
so we ran it on the dyno
we ran 80mph wind at the front of the bike (measured with a windspeed gauge and the belts on my fan are a little slack so the fans slower than usual)
on a full throttle acceleration run
damn me if the fluid didn't go up the LH pipe u bend, the other way !
there is an awful lot of suction in that airbox.i never expected to see vacuum.
when we turned the fan on and off the power increased and decreased.
and the fluid level in the manometer went higher and lower.
things don't always work the way you expect.
I now have to rethink the whole thing.
I'm posting this because there is a possibility the voltage readings may be the same or simular when tested but one a negative and one a positive for the reasons decribed above.
hope this helps
and don't ask what cfm's the fan runs because it came off a grain dryer.
the odd thing is that we can set a zzr1400 up at a pre set a/f on the dyno
and it logs the same a/f at 197/200mph.
up until I tested the honda last week i was very happy with my dyno set up.
now I am a little confused
just adding this to the thread it may help and it may not.
I have also fitted the big carbon intake to my 2000 ZX12 and did not go any faster.
____________
197.4mph all motor
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted March 26, 2010 06:43 PM
I believe the ecu will automatically add fuel to keep engine from running too lean. However your information on the black bird
ram air is interesting! Did you manometer have a meter? How many millibars did you get?
supra
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted March 27, 2010 01:08 PM
so guess how many liters the frame portion will hold
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JOHN-DYNOSTAR
Parking Attendant
ZX12R owner
Posts: 7
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posted March 27, 2010 03:25 PM
Hi supra ,he did have it graduated .I will have to ask him.To me the readings were so opposite to each other it did need measurement increments
texas12,the chassis leaks like a sieve (no doubt as you now know) so unless you blocked ALL the holes it would have to be a rough guess.
18 litres
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197.4mph all motor
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted March 27, 2010 04:46 PM
Real close.... 15.5 liters +/-100 milileters.
I taped all the holes..... And checked my
volume twice for accuracy.
I warned supra that I was slow.....
but I've had a couple of major events
since I said I would get the volume info
but I got it... and it is factual
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted March 28, 2010 05:27 PM
Awesome. Thanks!
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JOHN-DYNOSTAR
Parking Attendant
ZX12R owner
Posts: 7
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posted March 31, 2010 10:31 PM
Edited By: JOHN-DYNOSTAR on 1 Apr 2010 06:33
after much discussion here in the shop.
we suddenly realised the blackbird has very very restricted intake tubes where they
actually loop over the frame rails under the bodywork.
maybe not the best bike to use as an example as its not really a ram air bike as such
more sort of ram assisted .
15,18 pretty close then. about the size of an average sportbike petrol tank.
____________
197.4mph all motor
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted April 01, 2010 09:52 PM
That might not be necessairly bad as the goal is to SLOW the air down and build pressure.
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JOHN-DYNOSTAR
Parking Attendant
ZX12R owner
Posts: 7
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posted April 04, 2010 01:40 PM
yes supra but not so good for testing purposes on the dyno.
decided now we have to make one of these manometer things to test all bikes for comparison purposes.
oh dear, never ending
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197.4mph all motor
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