posted November 14, 2001 09:13 PM
Increased Fuel Pressure vs Most maps?! Something is not making sense here fella's. I am really open for an explaination. Here is what I have noticed. In the zx12, 1270 and 1361 pc3 maps, there is a tremendous reduction in fuel to the bike as created on the dynoes. Many negative values to decrease the "factory" fuel settings from the ecu for the stock and increased cc motors. These negative values, or fuel reduction are all over the place to many different degrees. But, then we are told that the motors (1270, 1361) are on the "verge" of being starved for fuel. Yet, maps from the same company for these kits, during the last year, have many negative values reducing the amount of fuel that the "factory" ecu says it should have.
Either the bike is getting TOO MUCH gas or NOT ENOUGH, and I would like to know which is it?!?!??!?!?!?! Cause if the maps that are created for most pipes is reducing fuel, then why would I want to increased fuel pressure for more fuel, only to have to cut fuel another 3% over the already reduced fuel numbers currently in the map. The factory fuel pump can't be at the "upper limits" of being able to supply fuel if we are reducing fuel..........Maybe I have misunderstood something?!?!?!?!?!?
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
posted November 15, 2001 12:52 AM
I am interested in this topic cause I have a 1361 and the Muzzy pump.
Did you get maps with the 1270 and 1361 which are real skinny (lots of negatives????)
Have you done DJ250 w/tunimg link, made custom maps??? are they real skinny? what hp are you getting?
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Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted November 15, 2001 08:07 AM
Hey guys -
I'll have the 1347 bike back together next week, with a big pump on it. It's at the shop where my DJ250 is and I'll be building a new map using Tuning Link. It's a PCIIIr/K&N/BigPump/MuzzyFullStainless/AdjCamSprockets/ManualCamChainAdj motor, so it's got pretty much the same stuff as everyone else. ____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
I'll have the 1347 bike back together next week, with a big pump on it. It's at the shop where my DJ250 is and I'll be building a new map using Tuning Link. It's a PCIIIr/K&N/BigPump/MuzzyFullStainless/AdjCamSprockets/ManualCamChainAdj motor, so it's got pretty much the same stuff as everyone else.
SWFT: details, details
Q: have you got Doug's "fat map" for Muzzy pump?? It works great for me!
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posted November 20, 2001 05:02 PM
I was really hoping that the logical questions of this topic would stimulate some thinking to give us some answers to why we don't need more gas but, we need more fuel pressure?!
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
posted November 20, 2001 07:02 PM
good question I'm not sure about programming w/PC3R but I do A LOT of programming with LT1 Edit, a program for tuning the ECM in my Z28 and Trans-Am.
I _do_ know that increasing fuel pressure with yield more fuel delivery on a given injector. Even though the pulsewidths don't change, the volume delivered does.
So, if they are pulling fuel from the tables, your example asks an excellent question! Why are we increasing fuel delivery with higher pressure and a replacement pump that has the ability to flow more volume if we are pulling fuel from the maps?
quote:Entropy - Can you email Doug's fat map to me?
swftratt@home.com
that's affirrmative SWFT, just as soon as I get to "work" (my daughter's way of spelling my job) today.
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posted November 21, 2001 03:12 AM
Can't sleep on my night off, curse of working night's but my guess is that Muzzy's have discovered the stock pump's capacity would be marginal in sustaining high HP loads from the 12. More pump PRESSURE at the same volume delivery and fuel map as the stock pump equals more fuel flow with a given injector timing. Increasing the injector TIMING/DURATION, at the stock pressure, up to a point also increases the volume of fuel injected as long as the PUMP can provide the volume. ie changing the percentages + via a PCIII. At some point the injectors become the roadblock, must avoid a 100% duty cycle. Also, I have a formula somewhere (Hot Boat Magazine) that gives a figure of how much fuel is required to support (each) 100HP per hour of use. The figure was between 7-10 gallons of fuel/hour/100HP. Higher HP will simply require a larger volume of fuel delivery at sustained WOT. The negatives on the maps at partial throttle openings are because the stock maps are too rich at that throttle setting. That is not a reflection on the stock pumps RESERVE CAPACITY at WOT. The reason that Muzzy's say to lean 3% from your baseline map would seem to be then that Muzzy's pump at least delivers more pressure, so lean it a little. My second guess in that it also deliver's more volume because new injector's are part of Muzzy's race turbo package. The extra volume (reserve capacity) is simply bypassed back to the tank with stock injectors. Problem, the fuel cools the in-the-tank pumps. A higher capacity (volume) pump would have to bypass more fuel during near-legal, normal riding possibly heating the fuel. As an aside the maps with the Yoshimura EMS also have a lot of negatives. The confusion then seems to be the lack of problems documented thus far when using the stock pump. Quite a few 12's are near to reaching 200HP on the dyno with the stock pump and a few have exceeded 200HP. More than likely the stock pump is good for short bursts at a higher HP, say dyno or dragstrip use by bypassing less/no fuel. Of course that means no reserve capacity.
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Candy Persimmon Red may be slower, but I'm trying!
posted November 21, 2001 10:44 AM
Hondo, Thanks. couldn't have said it better myself.
The issue is that at 200hp you need (approx) 100lb/hr of gasoline.
The stock pump is right about 90% capacity at that output. It's efficiency starts to deteriorate at that point. Also with the same pressure the duty cycle of the injector is getting to the high end of the envelope. By installing a pump with more ultimate capability you bring the pump's output down into the "meat" of it's efficiency curve making it more stabile and tunable. The additional pressure supplies more flow per for a given pulse width to the injector thereby allowing a reduction in duty cycle.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
posted November 21, 2001 08:05 PM
Stock Pumps One of the things I found running Superchargers and Turbos in Miatas was that both stock fuel pumps and higher performance aftermarket pumps varied considerably from pump to pump and car to car in pressure and flow output. (Walbro Pumps) Consequently you could have one car that ran lean with a stock fuel pump while another didn't. It may be that some 12's have a good pump where pressure and flow rate is adequate for a given engine mod and another may have a poor pump and run lean. By supplying a better pump Muzzy eliminates one variable in tuning the higher output engine.
posted November 22, 2001 12:16 AM
I'm going to stay with the stock pump for a single stage version of King's dry shot but will really consider a pump and injector upgrade when I add the second stage. WOO-HOO
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Candy Persimmon Red may be slower, but I'm trying!
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