jason370
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posted November 15, 2002 02:03 AM
who is the most CLUTCH athlete ever?
reggie? mj? steve young?
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 08:17 AM
Elway and Montana have made just a few comebacks.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
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future; -- Youth is forever.
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jason370
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posted November 15, 2002 10:01 AM
fuck elway, he is a homo
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Dino
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posted November 15, 2002 04:31 PM
Billy Buckner 
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uh oh
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 06:57 PM
Bill Buckner? Didn't he miss a ground ball up the first base line?
Elway a homo? I doubt that. As a Seattle Seahawk fan I can't but hate Elway. But that said he holds the NFL record for the most comebacks and or final possession wins or something like that.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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beansbaxter
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posted November 15, 2002 07:46 PM
His Airness MJ of course! I'm a basketball freek, and I always think of Reggie Miller when I think of CLUTCH moments in the game.
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 07:49 PM
MJ has come through in the clutch many times. But I can't overlook the rediculous calls made by the NBA refs on Jordans behalf. It is a lot easier to come through when you (Jordan) can ru n over the top of the defender and if the defender has the audacity to actually defend he will be called for it!
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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beansbaxter
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posted November 15, 2002 07:58 PM
Now Z...are these references regarding refs and MJ due in part to his comeback or are you speaking from his overall NBA career.
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 08:03 PM
He as in the case of the major superstars in the NBA are given outragous protection and calls. Just as in the cas of Shaq these days. Jordan would have had to use a gun and shoot the defender dead on TV in order to be charged with a charge or traveling. I couldn't comment on his comeback as I have quit watching the NBA. The NBA has become another version of the WWF. At least the wrestling guys admit it is bullshit and rigged.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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beansbaxter
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posted November 15, 2002 08:08 PM
For the first hardcore time, I have to disagree with you. NBA is my passion, I'm a hardcore follower, I love it live.
But the NBA is NOT another version of the WWF. I can agree with your statement on the outrageous protection, but to fill you in on the league changes over the last few years, zone defenses are now allowed and that has died some. Positions in the past, like the PG, that have shadowed from the shooting gards and shooting forwards, are now becoming prominent like they should, as they lead their team down the court.
Thinking of clutch moments, with the game on the line, for the NBA...MJ has been there. Even unselfishly, remember the assist to Paxton to win in the 1991 Finals.
But no WWF drama, no storyline, no scantily clad dressed women, a sport that has gotten away from fundamentals yes, but that is due to these athletes that dont have the experience, dont have the program that some of these colleges have.
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 08:33 PM
Basketball is offense and defense. The NBA has decided that defense is for girls and scoring is for boys. I get tired of watching a defender work his ass off get in position and make the play and get called because he is not one of the chosen few. When I played ball I was not the team leading scorer. I average 12 points a game in Highschool which was a respectful average. However what I did pride myself on is I usually drew the other teams top scorer for defense. And as a rule 90% or more of the time the hot shot didn't get close to his average and most certainly he didn't have a big game. My coaches always made it clear that my real scoring average was my points plus the points I held a guy under his average.
The NBA calls charging on the no names and usually to make a star look better. One of the very best players to play in the past ten years has been Scotty Pipin. I don't like his politics, nor his attitude, but the reality is he played both ends of the floor and played defense like it should be played. Pipin's defense skills enable Jordan to cheat and leave early etc. A lot of Jordans success was a result of having Pipin on the floor as well. Even Jordan has stated this.
My other issue with the NBA is how about throwing the rules out and rewriting them to reflect ow the game is played. Acknowledge that you must carry the ball more then 15 feet in order for it to be a carry, travelling is only called after 3 or 4 steps, it is illeagal to impede the offensive players ability to go to the hole, Pushing off is only a foul if you are not a superstar, there is no such thing as a lane violation for a superstar, 3 seconds in the key is not really a rule.
Some place along the way the pro game has changed. That is why a first class college game is hard to beat. The college refs don't give the stars preferential treatment and they have to play the game straight up. I know
the excuse they are stars and they don't want to endanger their careers etc. Thats bunk. Play the game like a man and let the chips fall where they may. If the NBA were incharge of Motorcyce racing they would be black flagging and or meat balling anyone that passed Nicky Hayden and or Rossi. In stead we get to see balls out racing.
My two cents worth.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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beansbaxter
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posted November 15, 2002 08:37 PM
Do you still follow college basketball?
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 08:48 PM
Quite a bit of the time. This year I'm kind of tied up with my 6 different companies. and so i cruise the internet for info. I do wish that WSU or UW had better programs. It would be fun to go to some good games. I played football and baseball for the University of Florida. So I pay attention to Florida's sports teams. A rela hi-lite in Florida's basketball program occurred in 73 or 74. We played three #1 ranked teams in a row. Alabama, Kentucky and Notre Dame. We beat all three! It was amzing! Of course it did us little good we lost more then our fair shair so we didn't make the tournament.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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beansbaxter
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posted November 15, 2002 08:50 PM
I went to the WSU exhibition game, they played Australia. I too agree that I wish they had better programs.
I think balls out NBA would be good, and I do agree with your Pip the quick statement.
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 08:57 PM
It would be interesting to see the hoop raised to 12 feet.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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beansbaxter
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posted November 15, 2002 08:59 PM
I'm trying to get out there to go see a Sonics game, may even drive the 12 out there to go....would you like to catch a game with me and my roomie?
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 09:01 PM
Sure. Give me a jingle.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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bigju
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posted November 15, 2002 10:08 PM
Z I agree with you on the NBA being bull shit. I also like Basketball on the University level. I disagree about the whole Pippin thing. MJ would have made comebacks, won scoring titles, defensive player of the year and got a ring without him. Pippin benifited more from MJ. Remember when he was in Houston? You have him, Barkley, Drexler and Akeem. No Ring. The ggreatest comeback of all was when MJ kicked pippen in the ass after the Detroit wars and made him ask his mother for some balls. If you follow the NBA you know Pippin was a No Show vs Detroit in the early days. I just hate all these guys skip the NCAA and go pro. Its killing that level of basket ball. Bottom line MJ is an Serial Killer!!! Just ask Cleveland fans, Phoenix fans, Utah Fans, Knicks fans, Laker Fans and Sonic fans. "I was rooting for the sonics in that series"
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ZHooligan
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posted November 15, 2002 10:12 PM
I think the fact that MJ was involved in every contract negotiations involving Pippin while at Chicago. Including two times that Michael restructured his contract to free up money for Chicago to pay Pipin speaks volumes. Jordan was a special player and would have attained greatness without Pippin. But Chicago would not have won all those championships without Pippin, just as they would not have without Jordan. And in fact neither has won shit without the other!
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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beansbaxter
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posted November 16, 2002 12:54 AM
Dont forget the coach of course, Phil Jackson.
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