posted November 12, 2001 08:10 PM
tips to lighten a zx12? I don't see a lot that can be removed
and still be street legal.
What have you removed.
The pipe is a given, NEXT?
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posted November 12, 2001 08:58 PM
For me, the pipe was 17.5 of the 29 lbs. I've removed so far Thre rest was mostly from adding up all the little stuff. Here's a few I can remember off the top of my head...
Removed rear foot pegs and brackets (using Dino's pipe bracket)
Changed front pegs to LP pegs
Removed Kleen Air plumbing
Removed the plastic "resonators" from the intake tubes
Trimmed rear fender
Changed to LP mini stalk signals in back
Removed plastic tub from tail section (gained more space too)
Changed front brake master cylinder system to a Nissin from LP
Removed chain guard ad cut off the tabs from the swing arm
Removed front sprocket cover
Changed front brake lines to braided S/S
Braking USA front rotors (had to since OEM were too warped)
Changed the rear 200/50 to a 180/55
It boils down to trimming weight a few ounces at a time or spending the big $$$ for CF and wheels. Neither of which I'll ever be able to afford.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 12, 2001 09:06 PM
Not a whole lot...for the street...
Wheels can make a pretty big diff. though...
You can loose a disc and caliper also. Carbon intake is a lot lighter than stock also.
Gas tank is HEAVY...if your not worried about "range"...loose it too...
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posted November 13, 2001 06:30 AM
29 might be nice, BUT... It'd be even better if I could cut back on the fast food crap and loose 29 pounds. One second thought... never mind.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 13, 2001 06:32 AM
Edited By: silver01bullit on 13 Nov 2001 07:12
you could drain the oil out of it...LOL, sorry, i'm a smart ass...everything Red said. You could also lose some in the wheels, discs, and calipers. After that I think you're lookin' at carbon fiber
Redelk,
will lowering the front and back be beneficial to handling, or would just dropping the front be better?
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posted November 13, 2001 08:21 AM
1. Exhaust
2. Rear fender
3. CF everywhere you can!
4. Wheels!
I will have to get a pair of scales and weigh my 12, and Necro's stocker, to see the difference.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted November 13, 2001 11:46 AM
Red, man you're good.
I can see now, that to
drop weight on this girl
you have to really want it bad.
Thanks for the very good points.
I like my pegs (as soon as i take the off honey will want
to ride).
Scared to remove any braking power on this big girl.
How did the resonator affect the performance on the bike?
I think i will just drop 10lbs off
the fatass.
Everytime i skip lunch i'll have another $5 for upgrades.
thats $25 /week or $100 /month .
Damn that's 5 months to the first upgrade.
remember the $500 wish list.
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posted November 13, 2001 11:55 AM
silver01bullit, I no expert in this.... ... but that doesn't mean that I don't have an opinion.
First, I want to stress that I look at suspension set up as a "voodoo art" and something of a "give and take" for the average rider of public roads. Like oils, tires and pipes, everyone has a preference and understandably feels that their choice is the best one. So many factors, such as rider weight, rider style and road surface conditions are some of the important bearing factors on what set up works and what doesn't.
Because I've proven time and time again, I'm probably one of the SLOWEST riders on this board (just ask anyone that was at either Gap event - especially Lucky, Harry or Wildman), I'm not so sure that I'd be the best source for suspension set up information. Having said all that, that doesn't mean I'm not going give it a shot!
My "bible" is the 12 page suspension supplement that was in Sport Rider ("sponsored" by Kawasaki). In it, there are detailed descriptions of how each aspect of the suspension works, how one setting affect the others and what all this means to the bike's handling and ride characteristics.
In it, they state that one of the most important settings (and often overlooked IMHO) is the static sag. I'm going to quote (loosely) what was suggested in setting the static sag.
To set static sag, we use Race Tech mastermind Paul Thede's method, which takes into account any stiction in the components. It's best to have two friends to help - one to hold the bike while the other measures - while you (fully dressed in your riding gear) do the compressing.
1. Extend the the front suspension completely. Measure from the wiper seal to the axle nut. Call this number L1.
2. Sit on your bike and have one of your helpers steady the bike. Your second helper should push down on the forks, let them extend slowly and re-measure as before. This number is L2.
3. Extend the forks by hand, let them settle slowly and re-measure. This number is L3.
Halfway between L2 and L3 is where your supension would settle if there were no friction in the system. Static sag can be calculated as follows: Static sag=L1-(L3+L2)/2. Repeat this process for the rear, measuring from the axle to a point directly above on the frame.
For street use, front static sag should be between 30~35mm (25~30mm for track days) and the rear static sag should be 25~30mm. Dialing the preload (the "rings" on top of the forks the "spring nut" on top of the shock spring) is how you'd adjust the static sag.
Notice that the rear's static sag is lower then the front's. This could be viewed as a "tail up" approach.
To set the rebound damping, push on the triple clamp (don't hold on the brake or the handlebars) or the seat. The suspension should rebound quickly to it's original position, but not beyond. If it takes MORE then one second for the suspension to return, less rebound is needed. If it over-extends and then compresses back to it's normal position, more rebound is needed. If understeer is a problem, raising the forks will address this and allow you to keep the current preload settings. Compression damping is often set by personal preference as opposed to a "definite optimum".
Confused? I am and have been ever since I first read the whole article. Still, what I have done is taken the information from that supplement and combined it with what has been shared here to get what I currently run (a "tail up" attitude). My current problem is the 120/60 I'm running up front has lowered my front an additional half inch. I say "additional" because I have the forks up a half inch already. I'm sure that if I returned the forks back to the original position, it would likely fix this. I've just been too lazy to do it. It might be a project for this week, but I'll have to wait and see.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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posted November 13, 2001 12:11 PM
good post redelk. I used to have that guide somewhere but I lost it. I love it when I make a change in my suspension settings and it HELPS me go faster!!! But I must admit I've fucked up and went the wrong way more than I've went the right way. I used the article that Final Velocity posted on Labusas to set up my 12. Then over a period of time did minor tweaks to fine tune it. It rails pretty good for a big heavy bike that's carrying a big heavy rider. ____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted November 13, 2001 01:08 PM
Thanks Redelk, helpful as usual!
I think I've got my suspension setup pretty well (preload, compression, damping) to suit my riding style, weight, etc. I was just curious which would make a bigger difference, lowering just the front or both the front and back.
My thoughts are: would lowering just the front be more effective cause it would shorten the wheel base and make it turn in quicker?
Wouldn't lowering the back as well as the front keep the wheel base the same? If so, wouldn't handling still be better cause the bike wouldn't feel so "top heavy"?
Please let me know if I don't make any sense, I know it's not an Aprilia, but I know it can handle better!
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posted November 13, 2001 02:35 PM
Edited By: redelk on 13 Nov 2001 14:38
Some of my 1. I've moved the forks up approx. 1/2" above the triple clamp (okay... EXACTLY). Doing this reduces the angle of the rake, shortens the trail and by a very small amount, shortens the wheelbase. It also gives the bike a slightly more "nose down/tail up" attitude.
2. When replacing the chain, I cut the chain to where the axle is a far forward as practically possible. This can reduce the wheelbase by almost a full 1". Okay... maybe 3/4".
3. I replaced the 200/50 with a 180/55. The two are very similar in their dimentions with the exception of width.
4. Twos, twos and twos. Most of the suspension settings are two clicks from hard.
5. Changed the front to a 120/60 from the standard 120/70. Without altering the the fork location in the triple clamp, this has not been such a bright move. I think that the "stupidity" is based in the fact that I'd think that a 120/60 would work without altering any of the exsisting suspension settings. THe bike reacts so dramatically to the slightest of input, it almost feels "wobbly".
My theory is that these changes result in a quicker response to steering input. Does it? Without a doubt. Does it produce a "better handling" bike? That is debatable. I refer back to the time Lucky rode my 12R, last time I was at the Gap. His opinion was that the bike was relatively stable and handled well. The "punch line" is that my bike was not noticably better or worse then his bike.
On first blush, that'd be quite a compliment when you consider Lucky has those trick wheels (with 120/70 & 180/55 Pilots). On the other hand, his forks aren't moved, nor is his chain shortened. He does run what would be considered as a high "tail up" rear suspension setting. So, it just proves that there is more then one way to get the desired results in handling and stability.
I guess I should answer your question about raising and lowering. IMHO, I wouldn't LOWER the rear, but everything else is fair game. It boils down to what ever melts your butter (aka makes you able to ride faster with confidence).
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 13, 2001 02:57 PM
You can buy a set of wheels from me and lose ~10lbs of unnecessary wheel weight. Even more when rotational weight is factored in.
Cheaper than you think
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posted November 13, 2001 05:54 PM
Sherman -
Friend, you should *REALLY* take the time this winter to take your forks off and send them to RaceTech. The factory springs are only 0.8kg/mm, which means that under braking, the front end is diving excessively. RaceTech sells 1.0kg/mm springs for the 12. Price is about $90 for both forks. The stock valving is inadequate as well, being too restrictive (doesn't allow the front end to move fast enough). The Gold Valve kit for the zx12r (Fork Gold Valve: FMGV S2530) is another $150 (suggested retail, prolly lower online). Here's the kicker: The tools required to take your KYB forks apart will set you back about $1200, if bought from Kawasaki, or about $500 from RaceTech. So unless you plan on either rebuilding your forks more than four times, or rebuilding more than four sets of forks, it's a lot cheaper to send them down to RaceTech. Cost is about $135 plus shipping. And what do you get back? A pair of the slickest, most supple forks that it's ever been my pleasure to feel through my hands. Riding my 12, I can feel the difference in textures of asphalt, if I'm on concrete and whether it's been smoothed or not. Next time you're out, ride over a manhole cover. Can you feel the ridges of the cover as you go over it? Never could feel any of that with the stock forks. Basically stock forks use restrictive valving to compensate for too soft of a spring. The Gold Valve flows A LOT more fluid, which gives you a finer control of the damping, and combined with a stiffer spring, gives the front end more muscle when you really need it. Ie, braking hard into a decreasing radius corner, and really NOT needing the bike to stand up and head for the outside yellow line, which is just a couple inches from a 200' drop into the blast crater in the Mount Saint Helen's National Volcanic Monument. It's really amazing the difference. The front end is now both more supple, and firmer at the same time. Better feel, and better control under braking. Total cost:
$090 - springs
$150 - gold valve kit
$135 - race tech rebuild and custom setup for customer
----------
$375 total
Sherman, I believe so strongly in this being one of the very best improvements you can make to your bike, I'll make you a bet. If money's tight (and when isn't it?) I'll send you a check for $450. That'll cover the cost of the gold valves, the springs, racetech install, and should handle shipping as well. You get them back, try them out. If you don't think the improvement was worth it, no worries. If you DO think it was worth it, send me a check when you can. Deal?
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posted November 13, 2001 05:58 PM
Edited By: redelk on 13 Nov 2001 17:59
NINJA12 I could not agree with you more when it comes to not wanting to reduce the braking power of these beasts. Weight reduction was not the reason for switching to the Nissin master cylinder. That was just an additional perk.
The main reason was MORE braking power. The Nissin's master cylinder piston is over 125% bigger then the OEM unit. Combined with braided lines and Braking USA rotors, it has dramatically superior stopping power the the OEM configuration. Even though the Braking USA rotors are not really friendly to the EBC HH pads, the combination produces as good or better braking capabilities as the OEM master cylinder with braided lines (-3, not -2) and HH pads.
Unlike many of the "tricks" I've done to reduce the bike's weight, replacing the master cylinder results in a reduction that can actually be measured in POUNDS instead of ounces. Without actually weighing them (again), I would guess-timate that the weight difference between the OEM master cylinder with the OEM lines (and it's various hardware - i.e. the "T" and such) verses the Nissin with braided lines to be close to TWO POUNDS!
That's quite a bit for paying a little over $100 for the Nissin unit. The braided lines were "left over" from my 7R. There is one "cavet" about this. I know that the OEM lines will not work with the Nissin and I doubt that even braided lines specifically for the 12R would work either. The OEM lines have two problems. One, they are too short and two, the 12R lines have a bend where the banjo bolt goes into the OEM master cylinder. As you can see from the pic, my lines run straight down from the banjo bolt.
Now I haven't studied 12R using braided lines with the OEM master cylinder, this might not be the case. It's just that my 7R lines worked perfectly. When you look at the specs on the front brakes of the 7R and the 12R, they are identical. The 7R uses the same 320mm rotors and six piston calipers as the 12R. Okay, so the 12R has gold calipers and the 7R has black. That the only difference. The same applies for the rotors. As a matter of fact, the Braking USA rotors I now have on my 12R... you guessed it, came off my 7R.
My thoughts on weight reduction is that it should NEVER compromise the performance or even more importantly, the safety of the bike. To underscore that, when I put the brake light intergrator on, I could have just removed my rear turn signals, since my tail light was also acting as my turn signals. Instead, I removed the OEM signals and put on the LP mini stalk signals. I did this just for those coming up behind me were absolutly sure of my intentions.
That's also why I've kept the OEM signals up front. I could replace them with the better looking and lighter flush mounts, but they are not as visible as the OEM signals (IMO). There are way too many blue hairs here in Arkansas that wear those wide wrap around sunglasses here. Not to be "stylish", but in most cases due to recent eye surgery. Anything that improves my visibility to these "blind bats" could result in me having another day I can go riding.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 13, 2001 06:12 PM
I have taken some weight off of my bike. Aftermarket wheels, a little lighter not tooo much though I think. Full Muzzy Ti pipe was the biggest think. No storage box, cut fender and tailight intergrated(sorry Red Elk But the most has been in the last month and 1/4 I have taken 20-25 lbs off of ME!!!!!! Changed my whole way of looking at food and eating. So far soooo good!!!!
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posted November 13, 2001 06:15 PM
Edited By: redelk on 13 Nov 2001 18:20
swft, I have no choice Sending the to Race Tech is something I SHOULD have done LAST winter! In reality, this winter should be the SECOND time I sent them to Race Tech. With almost 27 THOUSAND miles on my bike, my forks have been LONG OVERDUE for a rebuild. There current condition makes any adjustments I make on my suspension POINTLESS! The rear shock also needs to be recharged as well. When I recharged the 7R's shock, it made a world of difference. If I had just spent the VERY LITTLE extra money to have the forks done, it would have been a brand new bike.
Best of all, it would have increased my confidence level. Thanks to you and your previous posts about the fork tool hassles, I will refuse to let that happen with my 12R, any longer. Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but shouldn't the forks be "gone over" about every 12K miles? Anyone would benefit from sending their forks to Race Tech, no matter how many (or few) miles they have on their bike. It's just that after 10K+ miles, many of the internal components have weakened to the point of being almost UNSAFE!
EVERYONE needs to heed swft's advice on this one. If not Race Tech, at least someone who is both competent and has the PROPER tools. With the prices swft has quoted, I find it hard to believe that there's that many other places out there that can give you the same results at such a cheap price. THANKS, swft!
BTW - I'd almost take you up on that bet since that about how much I had to pay to Sears for a new fridge (the balance on my Sears card). Sadly, I realize that it would be just a loan instead of a bet.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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posted November 16, 2001 10:00 PM
Weight is always a holy grail, but *controlling* that weight is always important. No better way than letting Race Tech hook you up. BTW, everything Circuit One supposedly knows came from a Race Tech seminar...So you either get the water from the horse, or go straight to the well...
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posted November 12, 2001 08:10 PM
of difference I'm sure.
posted November 13, 2001 06:30 AM
Edited By: 
posted November 13, 2001 10:08 AM
posted November 13, 2001 11:55 AM
posted November 13, 2001 03:47 PM
posted November 13, 2001 06:23 PM
