bundy
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted August 22, 2009 04:14 AM
was thinking about buying a zx12
would like to buy a zx12 an put a 1375 or1427 big bore is that a good ideal
____________
bundy
  
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted August 22, 2009 05:26 AM
No,money would be better spent buying the 14.Having said that,if you had the 12,the 1375 would be sweet.Personally,if I was to do it again,I would start off with head work.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted August 22, 2009 08:30 AM
Pete...If you were to do it again, I would say DONT TOUCH IT 
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
bundy
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted August 22, 2009 10:39 AM
i have a zx14 with a kws motor but would love to try another zx12,had a 1270 with heads an cams
____________
bundy
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted August 22, 2009 11:28 AM
quote:
Pete...If you were to do it again, I would say DONT TOUCH IT
Doh! oooh thats a low blow
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted August 22, 2009 12:29 PM
go for the big 12
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
hyper12r
Expert Class
Posts: 119
|
posted August 22, 2009 09:26 PM
http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/anmviewer.asp?a=5147&z=9
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted August 23, 2009 05:27 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Aug 2009 13:35
I have both bikes. You're better off with a 14 than buying a 12R and then spending the money to make a big motor. If you love a personal challenge and have a 12R already, I would say go ahead and build it. The 12R has a great cylinder head, but a weak transmission and clutch.
I'm sure 10 other guys will tell you differently, so I'm just giving my opinion as someone who owns both, and has raced both (stock displacement)..and spent the money to have a 12R motor built.
Shane
|
bundy
Novice Class
Posts: 39
|
posted August 23, 2009 05:28 AM
just like the feel of 12 ,14 is smooththe 1375 or 1427 got me going
____________
bundy
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted August 23, 2009 06:28 AM
if you are going to build a big bore stroker 12 for the street, i would suggest a 1380. 3mm bore, 4mm stroke. you will eventually need to get the gears back cut in the trans, and a billet clutch basket is a very good idea.
Shane, did you ever race the 12 after you had the motor work?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted August 23, 2009 06:39 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Aug 2009 15:09
quote:
Shane, did you ever race the 12 after you had the motor work?
No, not yet. But that won't change my opinion. I know how much money it takes to make a 12R run fast, reliably. The transmission and clutch parts alone are $1500+, not including any labor to do the job. Most of the big 12R's seem to be unreliable. Sure, you can make a case that it is from poor assembly...but that means that most of them must be poorly assembled. And no matter how you build the 12, it still has the small transmission gears and under-designed clutch.
I'm sure my 12R will be very fast. And for the time, effort, and money involved....it should be. I am confident that if I throw that kind of money at the 14 motor, it will be even faster and more reliable (due to the design limitations of the 12R).
Building a fast 12R is more a labor of love than a logical decision. So, from that standpoint...do what is going to make you happy! I also love my 12R, and I'm anxious to race it again. But after having the 14, I can see where it is an improvement.
Shane
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted August 23, 2009 11:03 AM
my big bore seems to run pretty good, and its still stock stroke (still smaller than a first gen busa motor even). im pulling more on the big end than brocked out 14s in my area. and im still running on pump gas. still have stock rims, working turn signals, high and low beam, tail lights ect. once the chassis is sorted out, im sure it will be much quicker aswell. cant seem to keep the front end on the ground lol. i havent lightened the bike any besides the exhaust system, more than likely made it heavier with the ballast..... my clutch can handle a lot of abuse now, and R&D took care of any trans design flaws.
i think its a solid platform to race with, what are the current fastest kawasakis at lsr events now?
speaking of design limitations, boring and stroking a 14 is a bit more complicated than doing it to a 12. that mono block/case is kinda a pain in the ass. and what happens if you damage something?
im not trying to start a big debate as its been done over and over, but a well built 12 will run with the best of them. sink a lot of money into either bike and it will be pretty much down to the driver.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted August 23, 2009 11:44 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Aug 2009 21:10
quote:
my big bore seems to run pretty good, and its still stock stroke (still smaller than a first gen busa motor even). im pulling more on the big end than brocked out 14s in my area. and im still running on pump gas. still have stock rims, working turn signals, high and low beam, tail lights ect. once the chassis is sorted out, im sure it will be much quicker aswell. cant seem to keep the front end on the ground lol. i havent lightened the bike any besides the exhaust system, more than likely made it heavier with the ballast..... my clutch can handle a lot of abuse now, and R&D took care of any trans design flaws.
i think its a solid platform to race with, what are the current fastest kawasakis at lsr events now?
speaking of design limitations, boring and stroking a 14 is a bit more complicated than doing it to a 12. that mono block/case is kinda a pain in the ass. and what happens if you damage something?
im not trying to start a big debate as its been done over and over, but a well built 12 will run with the best of them. sink a lot of money into either bike and it will be pretty much down to the driver.
High AND low beam? Wow, that is quite a machine you've got there! Sure, it's 68" long, with a drag-tuned lock up clutch, two step, and a big wet shot...but, by golly, it's got lights! So you are turning more mph than stock motored 14's? Wow...what did you expect with your built motor??
No matter what you do to your clutch, it is not as stout as a 14 clutch. Ditto with the transmission. As you know, the 12R transmission has small gears (which makes them prone to tip loading) and it is weak. R&D would not even claim that your 12R trans is equal to that of the 14. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true.
Stroking the 14 is not a big deal. A 4mm stroke equals a 1441, even with the stock bore. As for boring, I'll agree it is not as simple. But if the motor has the head, trans, and crank out already...what is the big deal? Sure, if you window the block you've got trouble...just like if you launch part of your 12R trans through your lower casing. The biggest drawback to the 14, imo, is that there has not been a lot of development done with the cylinder head. It is behind the 12R in that area.
As for the LSR issue. Scott, you really need to get out to the races more often. The 12R is no dominant force in LSR. Certainly no more dominant than the 14. It is one thing to read about results on the internet...it is another to be at the races, know the bikes, and watch them run. The fastest LSR Kawasaki right now is an old ZX-10...almost 20 years old, in fact. #2 would be Dean's 10R, I believe, and third is a Turbo 14. 4th is also a Turbo 14.
You may not want to turn it into a big debate, but you did. Like I said, I have both bikes. I have as much money or more invested in my 12R as I do my 14. But, unlike some others, I don't have a big chip on my shoulder whenever someone points out a flaw in the 12. Or the 14 for that matter. I just try to be realistic.
To the thread starter, see how many stroker 12R's you find that have not had trouble with rod bearings and similar. That is not to mention of the offset bores required with a Muzzy 1427...and again, the cost. If you are really into the 12R that much, go for it. A big motor 12R can definitely make some big power. Just be realistic and informed.
Shane
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted August 23, 2009 02:14 PM
ok here we go...
yeah, it could very easily be put on the road if i put insurance on it.
its 66.75in wb actually. my "built" motor (home built by a rookie... me) still gives up displacement to any busa or 14, and runs fine on 87 octane all day long.
the wet kit had nothing to do with running 154mph on pump gas 
the clutch in a 12 is smaller... so is the clutch in a 10, or a gsxr1000, guys build those bikes too, and dont avoid them because of clutch size. put a billet basket in(costs you 360 if you can do your own work) and do some oiling mods(free if you can run a drill and a grinder) if you are really hard on a clutch, run thicker steels. stiffer springs or a lock up to handle more power from nitrous or a turbo. my trans can handle well over 500 hp. im not worried about how weak it is compared to a 14 because i dont have anywhere close to 500 hp.
stroking the 14 means you need to run pistons with thinner tops, or run shorter rods, im not really inclined to try either, i can just add a spacer to the lower block gasket. you should talk to Jim at competition cnc, Im sure he has something for the 14 that would greatly improve power
yes i need to get out to an LSR event, my point was the 14 is not a dominant force, and i didnt say the 12 was. i said above, sink some money into either and its down to the driver.
you are very quick to point out flaws with the 12, but you dont seem to offer any guidance with fixing them. so i try to offer solutions to these problems as best as i can. for example, if you want to run an 87mm Muzzy billet big block, you need to offset the rod journals to match. if you run the non offset SBM 87mm big block, its not required. i suggested a 1380 as it retains the stock bore spacing(and stock block), and the 4mm crank (originally used in Muzzys 1361 kit) has a far superior sucess rate than the typical 4.6mm stroker crank. when you say its not logical to build a 12, thats your opinion. there are lots out there working just fine 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted August 23, 2009 02:20 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 23 Aug 2009 23:25
quote:
you are very quick to point out flaws with the 12, but you dont seem to offer any guidance with fixing them. so i try to offer solutions to these problems as best as i can. for example, if you want to run an 87mm Muzzy billet big block, you need to offset the rod journals to match. if you run the non offset SBM 87mm big block, its not required. i suggested a 1380 as it retains the stock bore spacing(and stock block), and the 4mm crank (originally used in Muzzys 1361 kit) has a far superior sucess rate than the typical 4.6mm stroker crank. when you say its not logical to build a 12, thats your opinion. there are lots out there working just fine
One way to avoid all of the bandaids is to choose a platform that doesn't require as many. I guess you have the billet gears in your trans, because the $1k version I have is only good for 250 hp. And that is straight from R&D. And the billet gears have their own issues, as you are aware.
Regarding the small clutches in the 1000's, yes they are a problem. We change Racheal's frequently. Now add another 80 hp and massive torque to an already borderline clutch (like the one in the 12)....what do you think that leads to?
Btw, I have already talked to Jim. I am also fully aware of what it takes to modify a 14. The thread starter asked if it was a "good idea" to build a stroker 12R...I guess it depends on how you define "good idea".
Shane
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted August 23, 2009 05:22 PM
Edited By: CrotchRocket on 24 Aug 2009 01:26
The moral of the story is :
BUY A ZX14 !!!!!
Scott.....Trust Shane, he is not bashing the 12.....Either am I...I still love my 12, but if I had the $$$ the 12 would be retired !!!
If it wasn't for me telling Shane everytime I see him to get a 14, Im sure he would still have his 12
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted August 24, 2009 03:14 AM
quote:
The moral of the story is :
BUY A ZX14 !!!!!
Scott.....Trust Shane, he is not bashing the 12.....Either am I...I still love my 12, but if I had the $$$ the 12 would be retired !!!
If it wasn't for me telling Shane everytime I see him to get a 14, Im sure he would still have his 12
Well, to be fair...I still have my 12R. I could have bought another 14 for what it cost for the motor and trans work, though...
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted August 24, 2009 07:00 AM
I meant still riding the 12
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted August 24, 2009 01:06 PM
quote:
I meant still riding the 12
Rick, when I get my 12R back together I'm calling you out!
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted August 24, 2009 03:26 PM
Let me guess...
I'll have to race you on your modified 12 with all kinds of secret tricks done to it ???
All I get to use is my stock motored 2002 12 that is 61 inches long using pump gas and I will have to FOOT SHIFT !!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted August 24, 2009 03:30 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 24 Aug 2009 23:38
quote:
Let me guess...
I'll have to race you on your modified 12 with all kinds of secret tricks done to it ???
All I get to use is my stock motored 2002 12 that is 61 inches long using pump gas and I will have to FOOT SHIFT !!!
A couple of small mods, Rick. Mostly for reliability.
Besides...pistons, cams and porting aren't really secret tricks!
Whenever I do finally get the bike together, I may run it as a short bike. Even shorter than yours. Just for the fun/challenge/learning....
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted August 24, 2009 04:00 PM
I hear ya...
Ohhhh, so now your gonna go easy on me
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
Phantom Menace
Expert Class
Posts: 169
|
posted September 06, 2009 07:24 PM
Get the 14. Although the 12r is the faster of the two pound for pound right now.... You need to consider the fact that the 12 has a 6 year head start on R&D. The 14 is a relatively new platform with more potential.its going to take time before you see them catch up to the top tier 12R's on the lsr tracks..... But eventually they will raise the bar.
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted September 11, 2009 03:36 PM
If you wait long enough and your timming is just
right........ KHI may just make the ZX-16 available
by the time the decision is made
as always I reserve the right to be wrong
|
2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
|
posted September 12, 2009 06:28 PM
doing more with less is a challenge. some times fun some times not.weigh the pros and cons of each. saying spend smart money may not make sence here since some will then say go busa.
i agree with the if you own a 12 already may as well use it. if you are starting from scratch i will say the 14 still has a way to go maybe go that way and follow the development.i myself am going to mod my 12r as i go. i can not see starting over collecting choice parts for the 14.
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC