deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted September 07, 2002 09:23 PM
Map for Bear Stacks
Anyone have a great fuel/timing map for a 2000 '12 with:
K&N's
No Kleen Air
Muzzy Ti
Bear Stacks
PC-IIIr
?? I'm currently using a map called "ZX-12R Muzzy Race Map" from www.zx-12r.org (not a muzzy offical map - but it works well on my bike). Thanks in advance!
  
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted September 07, 2002 09:29 PM
WHOOOPS! Almost forgot - I'm looking for the new map because of the Bear STacks. I think that I may need a new map to really realize the power possible wiht the new stacks. Anyone know if re-mapping will open up more power, or should I just leave her alone?
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted September 07, 2002 09:45 PM
I dunno about you...but tonight I maxxed out the PC3 with +45% fuel from 6500 to 12500 at wot and my bike has pulled like its never pulled before.
Raced a guy who usually constantly pulls me from a roll and it was a much closer outcome....running on spray is even better!
I dont really know how to explain it...I would think adding that much fuel would cause the bike to be down on power...but its exactly the opposite. Im also running the bored out stock velocity stacks.
We have a set of Bear stacks that we will install at maxton to see if there is any benefit from those over boring out your stockers.
As for me...im really liking running this rich and I would assume your bear stacks would like it as well!
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted September 08, 2002 04:39 AM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 8 Sep 2002 05:42
I "MAY" have done more testing on Bear Stacks than anyone except Pierre. I had the first set here in the US (March this year) and between what I have found and seen (Several people just put them in and did nothing else and made the correct "Expected" gains Like Dan and the guy at Indy!) Doing "NOTHING" seems to work the best! I have added & Removed Fuel! When I added even 2 to 3% more fuel, I "LOST" Static Power (Static = Dyno and no ram air). No one I Know has gotten less than 3 HP or more than 7 HP in Static tests! I am right in the Middle at 5 HP! My Bike had 152.4 HP Stock! It now has 177.5 (25 more than stock! 20 Hindle Step Tube Pipe and 5 Bear Stacks!) I have a PC3R and K&N Filters! Plan to get some BMC Race for Maxton!
Adding 45% More fuel WOT and no Sniffer / Dyno Test Totally a Blind Alley! Without any other changes, I took Haru's Bike on the same day on the same Dyno and changed from stock stacks to the enlarged stock stacks and he lost 2.3 HP Immediately! (Haru's Bike is totally Stock) I did the same to my bike (At the time I had an Akrapovic and K&N Filters) Using stock Boots gained just under 2 HP! With the Bored Stock Boots, I added fuel and (about 5%) and just about broke even in HP! The Bored Stock do need additional fuel but I do not believe 45% more is necessary! Take your Bike to a dyno before you put any "Stock" in that additional increase in fuel!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted September 08, 2002 08:52 AM
Vincent, ycis is running the bike in realworld conditions. I am not sure about that much more fuel however, it seems that something really different happens with these bikes off the dyno! I do not believe that we are compensating for the realworld conditions after we tune on the dyno. Because with your results, there should be no difference in the real world performance, yet i believe several here have noted some difference. Question, is Haru's bike much slower in the real world?! Probably not,,,,,,,that is my guess! I have always used a stock pipe, with the y2k mods and smooth bore exhaust opening and beat piped zx12's. So i am not fully clear about what how we should be setting up our pc3's to really maximize on the street at tps100%,,,,,if you look at our maps, there are many many "negative numbers". I have a hard time with this.....I just don't believe that the ECU is that off. We ultimately use these things to remove fuel even in the 100% column and that does not make sense to me. Adding Bear Stack's increase air flow! = more air = leaner mixture. So when we adjust on the dyno and get the a/f ratio just right, we then ride the bike in real world creating an increase air flow + Bear stack's = a/f ratio getting more lean and dyno map being not maximized. That is why i have a problem with negative numbers in the maps. ycis could be truly correct?!?! So, doing nothing seems to work best on the dyno.....what about real world?! I think that is what he is trying to say..........?!
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted September 08, 2002 11:39 AM
On the dyno...I really could care less what it reads. Its painfully obvious that the A/F ratio in a closed room with a bike not moving has zero correlation to the same bike at 150mph.
Ive run the bike on the dyno with 30 to 35% more fuel and was dead on 11/12:1 af ratio on motor...little higher on spray.
I didnt do this blindly...after speaking to other individuals (who ride busas and 1ks) who stand behind the fact that these big bikes LOVE fuel. It seems the consensus is that the more fuel you add up top...the more the bike pulls. I was leery of trying it until this weekend...and im completely happy I did. Not to mention I like to be more safe than sorry when running on spray.
I ride with the same guys week in and week out...do rollons with them hundreds of times and THAT I feel is a better tuning tool than anything else. It makes it obvious when someone is down on power...or did something that added power. Im not saying that dynos dont have their place in the tuning process...but tuning a bike that was designed for Ram Air in a room that has very little airflow is never going to allow the bike to achieve its maximum potential.
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted September 08, 2002 12:06 PM
the research on the dyno isn't likey to relate to real world when you factor in 195+ mph ram air. A person could argue both directions that what is done or gained on a dyno may or may not mean positive or negative results once you factor in 200mph speeds... JMHO of course
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vozizm
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Got Nothing Witty To Say
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posted September 08, 2002 02:25 PM
um..um...whats a bear stack?
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VOZ
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CharlieTuna
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted September 08, 2002 04:17 PM
Check this link to answer your question.
http://www.dontbescaredracing.com/bearstacks/
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Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted September 08, 2002 04:47 PM
Orient is making some money on these.They are selling them for $250
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted September 08, 2002 05:46 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 8 Sep 2002 18:48
Deathpulse,
I have no idea what the history is of that map you got from the other site. We've never named a map like that. We do have a newer one for the 00/01 that we just made available last week with improvement in the 2800 rpm stumble. Email me and I'll send it to you. The aluminum stacks don't change the fuel requirement. Except for the fact that my cams are degreed, my bike is set up just like yours the new map is the smoothest yet.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted September 08, 2002 06:06 PM
Thanks Doug! I tried to let everyone know it wasn't a Muzzy map - but it seems to work well on my old beast. Does the new Muzzy map have ignition advance? I don't think it really matters, as I can use the base ignition map that I already have, and then use the muzzy fuel values. Thanks again for such great products and GREATER product support Doug - MAKE MINE MUZZY!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted September 08, 2002 06:09 PM
"RA12R, Dan (Oldkawaboy) at Maxton ran 196 & 197 with the stock stacks! With "NO Other Changes" installed the Bear Stacks and ran 202! To me, this is as "Real" World As it gets!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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vozizm
Needs a job
Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
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posted September 08, 2002 06:36 PM
UM.... Thats souns awesome..... I have to do more research on the stacks..... How MUCH?... wifey got me on a budget.... so about a 5-10hp gain?.......
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VOZ
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted September 08, 2002 06:54 PM
Might gain the same results by boring out your stock stacks...we shall find out on the 28th 
Im really excited about maxton
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted September 09, 2002 09:13 AM
Edited By: RAC4IT on 9 Sep 2002 10:14
I agree Dan's results are proven. I'm going to be bringing two sets of stacks to Maxton this month as well as the stock unmodified rubber pieces to do some comparisons. I also will be doing K&N vs my modified stock (screens only) filters just for fun. FWIW I also was using Bear stacks (as seen on my site listed above) when I went 202.593 at maxton.
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VincentHill
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Posts: 6520
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posted September 09, 2002 09:24 AM
quote:
I agree Dan's results are proven. I'm going to be bringing two sets of stacks to Maxton this month as well as the stock unmodified rubber pieces to do some comparisons. I also will be doing K&N vs my modified stock (screens only) filters just for fun. FWIW I also was using Bear stacks (as seen on my site listed above) when I went 202.593 at maxton.
Then the test will be complete! TedG though this was how Kawasaki slowed their bikes! If you can run the number on the bored stock stacks or even close, then the final proof will be made!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted September 09, 2002 09:58 AM
Hey RAC...I think I asked this before also but I cant find the answer.
You were on 18/44 gearing with the 202 run right? Were you on the limiter? or did you have more to go?
I need to know if I should bring a 43t rear or not.
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted September 09, 2002 10:19 AM
Andy,
Your E-mail address does not work. Tried it thru the board and regular E. Give me another.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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vozizm
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Got Nothing Witty To Say
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posted September 09, 2002 10:37 AM
WOW... 200 bones for Bear Stacks.... How much more Hp should i expect to get?. Has anyone gotten them cheaper than $200?
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VOZ
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted September 09, 2002 11:17 AM
quote:
WOW... 200 bones for Bear Stacks.... How much more Hp should i expect to get?. Has anyone gotten them cheaper than $200?
List Price is $250 each set sold separate! $200 is a "Very" Good Price! I "Organized" 10 buyers and got them for $150.00 a set! (The First ever bought!) If you can get them for $200, do it! Static HP (Read Dyno) is from 3 to 7 HP! I got 5 Hp more on the Dyno! The real usage is Dynamic HP which must be about 15 to 20 HP because it takes that much more HP to make a bike doing 195 to go over 200!!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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vozizm
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Got Nothing Witty To Say
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posted September 09, 2002 11:31 AM
hmmm.... Complete set of 4 right?... we never talked about sets... i guess i dropped the ball on that one.... I'm hoping it's a set of 4...
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VOZ
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted September 09, 2002 11:42 AM
dont think he would sell many if it were 250 per stack 
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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vozizm
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Got Nothing Witty To Say
Posts: 4417
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posted September 09, 2002 11:52 AM
lol...lol...
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VOZ
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted September 09, 2002 12:08 PM
quote:
Hey RAC.. on 18/44 gearing with the 202 run right? Were you on the limiter? or did you have more to go?
I need to know if I should bring a 43t rear or not.
Yes I tried 18/43 first and was UNsuccessful at breaking 200 at Maxton all day Saturday (see the timeslips on my website at http://www.dontbescaredracing.com/photos/events/052602. My best speed was 199.115 on Saturday after changing to 18/44 gearing and drag launching the bike the best I could on a street tire and having the bike raised up. Sunday the air was better (but still hot 95+ degrees temp) and I waited until there was absolutely no wind before going to the starting line but just as I got there a slight breeze started up again. 1st pass Sunday morning I missed a shift and went 183 (ops!) but on my next pass I went 202.593 MPH using 18/44 gearing and bear stacks all motor AND NO PC3. That was 11:02 am. At 12:33pm I tried to back it up but couldn't it was so damn hot out by then and went 199.282. After that I swapped bikes onto a stock-motor 6" extended red ZX12R w/muzzys pipe (168hp) running 18/47 gearing and went 192.575 mph and 191.3 mph only 10 minutes apart. I felt that was the best I could do on the red 12R so after trading back and signing the tech sheet again to switch bikes back (you have to sign any time you change) I got back on my bike and went 200.552 MPH trying to backup a 200mph pass, and I did. I packed up and left early on Sunday because it's a solid 8 hours for me to get home.
To answer your question there I believe there was some room left but not much.. I never touched the limiter all weekend but it was close (well into redline). I drag race mostly and my reasoning for swapping the 18/43 out is that the bike wasn't pulling deep enough into the red and I assumed it would have a better trapspeed if I were closer to the limiter just like the dragstrip. When I put the 18/44 on it was probably only a hundred or two under touching the limiter.
But keep in mind the harder you launch the quicker it will tach out. When Ryan Schnitz rode my 12R he had to use 5th gear and trapped 156 while I only use 4th gear just almost touching the limiter in 4th at 152 (in the 1/4 mile of course). If you can launch like Ryan you might need a 43-tooth rear or maybe smaller depends on your weight; aerodynamic drag; horsepower and launch abilities.
One thing I will caution you about is using a limiter strap on the front; I ran 177 mph with the bike strapped down and it was NOT FUN. I loosened it and ran 186 with the strap on but LOOSE and it was NOT FUN. I removed the strap entirely after that for Maxton because the road surface is rough.. Maybe I'm skeered but at that speed- you need suspension
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