gsxrassassin
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted August 13, 2008 01:13 PM
Okay so my buddy calls KWS (guys down in South Carolina) and tells them about my plans to build the ZX-12R to a 1287. They flat-out tell him that the ZX-12R motor is not a good motor to build - PERIOD. They site all kinds of issues ranging from overheating to power loss to thrown rods.
Here's the bottom line - Johnny Cheese runs the fastest N/A ZX-12R in Texas. Shiphteey, Entropy, VIncent, Doug Meyer and countless other guys are running 1270s, 1287s, 1290s and even the strokers up and down the highway everyday without problems. I'm going to build this thing and when I'm done I'm going to make out a list of every nay-sayer that I ran into along the way. When the chance presents itself I'm going to make them eat their words as they stare at the tailights of my ZX-12R getting smaller and smaller out in front of them!
Yes, I'm tired of people bashing this bike. On a good note, Orient Express called me today and they'll be shipping my cams back to me tomorrow.
GSXR
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Over the hump, back up and running again!!
  
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted August 13, 2008 01:27 PM
 Edited By: shane661 on 13 Aug 2008 14:49
Well, I'm bowing out of this one. I was just trying to give some advice based on what has worked for me. I'm not quite that passionate about my oil. 
Shane
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 13, 2008 01:29 PM
BTW for Point of Record, My engine has a "STOCK" Bore and Stroke! With the Factory Stock Pistons on several Dyno's I made 183 "SAE" HP over 100 in torque. I made over 275 HP (310 HP) with a large dose of NOS On Standard Bore CP Pistons with a thicker dome and 10.5 compression! (Motor Only with this low compression I made 170 SAE HP on a conservative Dyno! )
The Stock Crank and Rods make this bike expensive because they spent time and money making them out of the best stuff!
Listen to 1 thing in particular that Dr. Doug said, the RINGS are the most important part of the Piston Bore Kit! The design and thinness is KEy to making HP! The Stock design is hard to beat!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted August 13, 2008 03:03 PM
I wonder what axe those guys have to grind. Their comments simply have no basis in fact.
I want to comment to Ken 12R. This is how these "tales" keep going. The ZX11's (ZZR to you) did pop some rods. BUT the cause was not the rod or the bearings as commonly thought. Again it was oil starvation, but not because of a "bad" design of the pump or the sump or the other moving parts. These failures were due again to low oil level, but resulting from slow drainback from the head. At sustained high speeds the oil would accumulate in the head and not drain to the sump fast enough to replenish the supply at the pump intake if the oil was just a small amount under the recommendation.
When we (Muzzys) began selling large numbers of ZX-11 crate engines to the car guys (with lateral G loading) we had to install two -10 lines on the side of the head opposite the cam chain to provide additional drainback. Once this was done the bearing problems went away. Again the problem is not oil, not weak or poorly designed parts. When used AS INTENDED, the ZX-11, like the 12, is bulletproof. All you have to do is keep the pump pickup wet.
In a motorcycle the G loading is always "vertical", since when the bike is leaned over the g load still pushes the oil "down" into the sump. But when you hold the engine flat, crank parallel to the ground, and turn, the oil slides sideways in the engine. In a left turn all the oil goes to the right side of the engine. In a ZX-11 (cam chain on the left) there is no way out for the oil. It just stays there until the straightaway. The opposite can happen in a 12.
In a drag bike with a wide tire or a wheelie bar, the same thing can happen in the sump. A hard launch plasters the oil against the back of the case, unporting the pickup. With a street tire you can't launch hard enough to do that. 1 "G" acceleration will put the oil at a 45 degree slope in the sump. 2G's will plaster it solid vertically against the back wall.
The only way to fix this is with a dry sump system, which is what you will find on a pro stocker.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted August 13, 2008 04:58 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 13 Aug 2008 18:12
The ZX12 may not be the easiest or cheapest engine build to obtain 200+hp, but the problems they have are unfounded.
quote:
They site all kinds of issues ................. thrown rods.
I think it is generally accepted that the stock ZX12 rods are significantly better than stock busa rods.
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Ken 12R
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted August 14, 2008 03:06 AM
Doug,I was aware of the cause of the rod failures and fully agree that the motor itself is fine which is why I said that there are still plenty running around with high milages,including mine.
Kawasaki modified the oiling during the life of the model and fitted an increased oil pressure switch which seemed to help but the main culprit was low oil level.
As the 60' times are dropping on my ZX12 I am more aware of the pick up being starved and was intending to fit a swinging pick up sump fitted with a baffle to contain the oil where its needed.
No good having the best oil and the best oiling system if the pick up is exposed.
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www.uklandspeedracingassociation.co.uk
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gsxrassassin
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted August 14, 2008 09:22 AM
quote:
BTW for Point of Record, My engine has a "STOCK" Bore and Stroke! With the Factory Stock Pistons on several Dyno's I made 183 "SAE" HP over 100 in torque. I made over 275 HP (310 HP) with a large dose of NOS On Standard Bore CP Pistons with a thicker dome and 10.5 compression! (Motor Only with this low compression I made 170 SAE HP on a conservative Dyno! )
The Stock Crank and Rods make this bike expensive because they spent time and money making them out of the best stuff!
Listen to 1 thing in particular that Dr. Doug said, the RINGS are the most important part of the Piston Bore Kit! The design and thinness is KEy to making HP! The Stock design is hard to beat!
Do you think I would run into a problem with the 1287 kit vs the 1270 kit? I'm kinda' up a creek because I already have the 1287 kit in my possession.
GSXR
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Over the hump, back up and running again!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted August 14, 2008 09:50 AM
No, not at all.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 14, 2008 12:24 PM
Install the Pistons and rings using SA Rated ND 30 wt oil! It is the cheapest oil made like what was used back in the 1930! It gives your pistons and rings a chance to start the seating process before the "Good" Oil hits them! (Any Oil you use today is Better than you want for Break in). I agree with Dr. Doug to use what you have and be 100% Happy!
Use the Cheapest Motorcycle Regular oil for at least 500 Miles without changing the oil and on and off the gas for break in. Do not Cruise! Accelerate let off! Sort of like how the Harley Crowd rides!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted August 14, 2008 01:46 PM
You have to look at what is working for TRUE serious people.
There are zx12s with serious motors that are living.., some guys who have built motors, built the motor, and did not take care of them.........
Same with some people on stock motors...........
Look at how fast some of us go on stockers.........
RP is great oil..........
But, when I ran in hotter and worse conditions, on the same track, and gained et with AMSOIL, I will not go back to RP.
The biggest problem I see with the zx12, is you just can't go REAL big, like you can with a busa..........
Every bike has its drawbacks, I think the tranny is a larger issue with the 12, since you cannot cut every other dog, personally.
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42 Wins
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2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted August 14, 2008 01:47 PM
Again Vince and I agree but slightly disagree...... My favorite ring assembly oil is non-synthetic two stroke oil. Lubes from the get go, but doesn't hang around!
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 14, 2008 03:37 PM
Hey Doug, i have heard of guys using tranny fluid for the same purpose. have you ever tried using ATF?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted August 14, 2008 04:52 PM
quote:
Okay so my buddy calls KWS (guys down in South Carolina) and tells them about my plans to build the ZX-12R to a 1287. They flat-out tell him that the ZX-12R motor is not a good motor to build - PERIOD. They site all kinds of issues ranging from overheating to power loss to thrown rods.
Here's the bottom line - Johnny Cheese runs the fastest N/A ZX-12R in Texas. Shiphteey, Entropy, VIncent, Doug Meyer and countless other guys are running 1270s, 1287s, 1290s and even the strokers up and down the highway everyday without problems. I'm going to build this thing and when I'm done I'm going to make out a list of every nay-sayer that I ran into along the way. When the chance presents itself I'm going to make them eat their words as they stare at the tailights of my ZX-12R getting smaller and smaller out in front of them!
Yes, I'm tired of people bashing this bike. On a good note, Orient Express called me today and they'll be shipping my cams back to me tomorrow.
GSXR
That would be Entropy with the fastest N/A (the one I built for Entropy used to be the fastest but I guess he paid attention to what I was doing and is built one faster than the one I did)the one I built was with a small shot of spray.
PS I do not run 12's I run a BUSA
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted August 14, 2008 05:00 PM
But, I do believe Mr. JohnnyCheese has built and tuned the fastest street nitrous ZX-12 in "Texas" and thats with some fat old guy on it that can't ride.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 14, 2008 06:45 PM
tell him more about your nitrous fed 1375 Gary 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 15, 2008 12:24 AM
quote:
Again Vince and I agree but slightly disagree...... My favorite ring assembly oil is non-synthetic two stroke oil. Lubes from the get go, but doesn't hang around!
I will try that! Because it scares me to use ND30 but I could not find anything else that equalled the Dry Assembly with a drop of Oil on each side of the Piston Skirt or using ND 30 for about 50 Miles then Drain and replace with Cheap Honda Motorcycle Oil! I do get great Ring seating and Break in. I also know better than to rev past 5,000 RPMS because the cars of that day Could not rev past that point! 
GREAT Idea to use the 2 stroke oil because it is designed to Burn! I can also rev higher and put more pressure on the Rings to get them seated. Thanks Dr, Doug I always enjoy learning.
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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gsxrassassin
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted August 15, 2008 05:44 AM
Vince said:
"Thanks Dr, Doug I always enjoy learning."
And I'm learning a lot reading what you guys are posting right now! Thanks a million! You have restored my confidence in this bike.
Johnny said:
"PS I do not run 12's I run a BUSA "
Wow, why did I think you ran a ZX-12R? Probably because of the one you built that was so fast. Let me ask you an honest question. I realize this is a ZX-12R sight but I need your open opinion about the ZX-12R as a bike to build. You can compare it to the Busa, the ZX-14 or any other bike you choose. I just need a straight answer because I'm getting WIDE sweeps of information from folks. I'm going to build mine regardless but I never shy away from input - good or bad.
Nox said:
"There are zx12s with serious motors that are living.., some guys who have built motors, built the motor, and did not take care of them.........
Same with some people on stock motors"
Good point. Garbage in, garbage out.
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Over the hump, back up and running again!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted August 15, 2008 08:42 AM
KZ
I would never use ATF. It contains all sorts of friction modifiers for the transmission clutches and gears that I would expect to inhibit break-in.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted August 15, 2008 10:42 AM
the Busa is a piece of cake to build.
just look back 9 years ago. there was a few bulders of Busas now everyone can claim to build you one.
12 is a PIA but it can be done most don't because you can't just bolt something on and it will make great power.
Karls and Buddy's (RIP) 1427 would have lastest ALONG time but I wasn't thinking about something right in front of my face and the crank and rods kept toasting.
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted August 15, 2008 11:04 AM
Yep, I have a hard time seeing JohnnyCheese riding anything but a copper top Busa with a hairdryer on it.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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gsxrassassin
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted August 15, 2008 11:19 AM
quote:
the Busa is a piece of cake to build.
just look back 9 years ago. there was a few bulders of Busas now everyone can claim to build you one.
12 is a PIA but it can be done most don't because you can't just bolt something on and it will make great power.
Karls and Buddy's (RIP) 1427 would have lastest ALONG time but I wasn't thinking about something right in front of my face and the crank and rods kept toasting.
Thanks, I really appreciate that. I've heard that from some guys who work on ZX-12Rs (that they're a pain to mess with). I'm glad you made the point that the bike can be built strong. Thanks.
GSXR
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Over the hump, back up and running again!!
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted August 15, 2008 12:12 PM
Your to funny Mr. JohnnyCheese! A piece of cake, for a Busa, I know your kidding, just because you get so many in that others have done very very poorly.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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gsxrassassin
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted August 27, 2008 07:27 AM
I wanted to thank everyone who helped me out with information on this thread. I learned a lot and plan to use this when I take on my next project. I'll let you guys know when things get back on track (maybe 6 months, maybe 2 years). Thanks again.
GSXR
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Over the hump, back up and running again!!
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rossi
Novice Class
Posts: 77
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posted August 28, 2008 11:34 AM
Now that everyone is talking about oil I have a quick question. What is the best to use for driving it on the street. I do ride it very hard with occasional wheel stands. I'm currently using Ams-Oil. Also this may be stupid but I'm not sure if I have not put enough in or not but the oil should be in the sight glass when on the side-stand; correct??? I know when vertical it is but not sure about on the stand. I think I may be low ???
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted August 28, 2008 11:58 AM
Wheel stands, ouch. No, don't worry about not seeing it when on the side stand. Straight up is usually the best time to look in the sight glass, and I don't mean with your front wheel straight up in the air.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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