gsxrassassin
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posted August 11, 2008 08:34 AM
Oiling to Number 3?
So over the weekend I'm talking to a guy who's built a couple ZX-12Rs, ZX-9Rs, Busasa and GSX-R1000s. He's recently retired from engine building and plans to spend more time with the family.
I told him I found and bought a 2000 ZX-12R. The first thing out of the guy's mouth is "Why would you do that?" I explain briefly how much I liked the ZX-12R when it came out and how I've always wanted one. He goes right into this thing about all ZX-12R motors having an oil feeding problem to piston number 3. Now this was news to me. I knew the '00 & '01 had a clutch basket problem that Kawi addressed in 2002. I also knew about a problem with the fuel overflow location (at the top of the motor where it's very hot) and oil getting into one of the wiring harnesses and wreaking havoc there but oiling to number 3?
Then he said I would have been much better off finding an older Hayabusa. I told him I owned a Hayabusa before and got tired of having the same bike as 3/4 the Chicago riders out there. His next offering: the ZX-14. I informed him of the need to remove the flies, grab a pipe, throw in filters, throw in a PCIII and dyno tune the thing just to match the power of a stock Hayabusa - it didn't make sense to me.
When I told him my plans of boring the motor, throwing in some cams, getting the head and valves treated, pipe, PC, filters and tuning he said one of the bizarre things I've ever heard. He said that if I bore a ZX-12R motor it will consistently lose power from the second year of the bore onward. It was then that I abruptly concluded the conversation because at that point the guy sounded like amental case to me.
I threw every part of that conversation out the mental window except this oiling problem to the number 3 piston. Has anyone ever heard of that issue on the ZX-12R? If so, what is the remedy? Thanks.
GSXR
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dougmeyer
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posted August 11, 2008 09:03 AM
No problem, no remedy needed. We've talked it to death. Keep the oil level where it belongs and there is no reason to be concerned.
Equally clueless on the boring. No basis in fact. In fact, a properly built example will get better the more it's run for a long time.
Good thing he retired.
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VincentHill
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posted August 11, 2008 02:19 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 11 Aug 2008 15:22
Dr. Doug Meyer knows more and has DONE more than all of the rest of us and I would NEVER Argue with what he said because he is correct as far as it goes.
If the Oil is always Above the Pump inlet then no problem! The problem is, the way the Oil is carried in the system to the Crank bearings (It is not a real problem for the Piston but the #3 rod big end). If you look at the service manual or the Ron Ayers first look at the ZX11 like the 1998D You will see that the Oil pipe has about a 1 inch tube to feed cyl 1 & 2 and at a 90 degree angle about 5 inches long it has another tube that feeds 3 & 4 Part 32033A
http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/3/Make/Kawasaki/YearID/39/Year/1998/ModelID/3733/Model/Ninja_ZX-11/GroupID/112837/Group/Crankcase
As soon as the Oil supply ported the Oil Pump the #3 & #4 cylinder would get an Air Buble in the oil supply and usually #3 would go dry and cause the Rod to be lost!
Look at the ZX12R and you will not see anything like this which resulted in the #3 rod not being the problem it was in the Past! the problem is, the Oil Pump is STILL on the left side of the engine (Read closer to #1 & #2 Cylinder and so if you starve the Oil Pump it will still be #3 Cylinder where the crank will go out first.
As you can see, Dr, Doug is correct that a full Oil supply will avoid this problem Usually! But a Hard launch on a drag ZX12R may push the oil behind the Pump! A too vertical Wheelie the same thing and which rod will you loose?? Usually #3
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KZScott
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posted August 11, 2008 05:28 PM
so unless you are cutting low 1.3 60fts or stunting the bike, dont worry, just keep the proper oil level in it. most problems are from bad assembly on motors that have been worked on.
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted August 11, 2008 05:30 PM
let's see 1270 with a 170+ shot 3+ years together
1375 with a 70+ shot 1 year daily rider and Txmile maxton mile runner.
yep that oiling can be a problem...................................................
NOT!!!
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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KZScott
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posted August 11, 2008 06:59 PM
quote:
let's see 1270 with a 170+ shot 3+ years together
1375 with a 70+ shot 1 year daily rider and Txmile maxton mile runner.
yep that oiling can be a problem...................................................
NOT!!!
says a lot about the builder/tuner right there  you rock JC
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted August 11, 2008 08:11 PM
Well put.
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NOX
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posted August 11, 2008 08:21 PM
Yeah, 900 plus passes on my old motor, it was fine till I starved it with a stupid experiment........
at least 500 sub 1.35 short times......
I
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gsxrassassin
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posted August 12, 2008 04:49 AM
Thanks guys. It's good to hear some REAL Kawasaki guys speak to the issue who have taken the time to understand what's going on and what preventive measures need to be taken to deal with it. I really appreciate it.
I don't drag and I don't stunt so as long as this thing has the right level of oil there shouldn't be any problems with it. I'm also glad Doug spoke to the motor boring issue. This other clown I spoke with made it seem like it was a bad idea but I've done enough research to know that there are strong 1270s and 1287s running all over the place. I couldn't figure it out.
One question I have - is there really any power difference between the 1270 and the larger 1287? Thanks.
GSXR
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VincentHill
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posted August 12, 2008 07:21 AM
The reason I went into the length of the #3 problem is at one time it was a SERIOUS Problem for all of the large water cooled Kawasaki Engines since 1984. With the ZX12R they are about as far away from this problem as they ever have been and I felt that if you did not know the History of the statement and the reasons why, you would be unarmed to deal with that guy!
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dougmeyer
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posted August 12, 2008 07:24 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 12 Aug 2008 08:30
The 1270 kit size was orginally chosen by Muzzys to take advantage of a thin ring that was already in the Kawasaki inventory. The thinner ring allows a thicker land and reduces bore friction. I think if you did a survey you'd find a small edge with the 1270 but it's not a big deal. Itcan be one of those small deals that add up, though.
BTW, NOX -I learned this lesson with my own small experiment at Bonneville in 1998 on my ZX-11 when I carefully lowered my oil level incrementally, expecting to see some evidence in the pressure before I reached the failure point. Unfortunately, I reached the failure point instaneously at 198 mph when the mains ran dry and a broken falicon billet rod sawed the cases in half in a millesecond spewing about 2.8 liters of Motul all over the tire. Interesting ride.
Doug
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shane661
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posted August 12, 2008 07:32 AM
quote:
let's see 1270 with a 170+ shot 3+ years together
1375 with a 70+ shot 1 year daily rider and Txmile maxton mile runner.
yep that oiling can be a problem...................................................
NOT!!!
A bit off topic, but which 1270 pistons hold up to 170 hp of spray?!?!?
I've seen that Wiseco makes a 85.5mm nitrous piston, but I never heard much about it.
Shane
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gsxrassassin
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Posts: 225
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posted August 12, 2008 09:41 AM
quote:
The reason I went into the length of the #3 problem is at one time it was a SERIOUS Problem for all of the large water cooled Kawasaki Engines since 1984. With the ZX12R they are about as far away from this problem as they ever have been and I felt that if you did not know the History of the statement and the reasons why, you would be unarmed to deal with that guy!
I appreciate it Vince and I'm glad that the ZX-12R isn't really related to the issue as some folks (like this clown I spoke with) seem to think it is. Now, what is the best oil to run in the ZX-12R? Is it better to go with regular or synthetic? What weight? Remember, I'm only street riding maybe twice to three times a week. Thanks.
GSXR
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VincentHill
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posted August 12, 2008 09:56 AM
quote:
quote:
The reason I went into the length of the #3 problem is at one time it was a SERIOUS Problem for all of the large water cooled Kawasaki Engines since 1984. With the ZX12R they are about as far away from this problem as they ever have been and I felt that if you did not know the History of the statement and the reasons why, you would be unarmed to deal with that guy!
I appreciate it Vince and I'm glad that the ZX-12R isn't really related to the issue as some folks (like this clown I spoke with) seem to think it is. Now, what is the best oil to run in the ZX-12R? Is it better to go with regular or synthetic? What weight? Remember, I'm only street riding maybe twice to three times a week. Thanks.
GSXR
OIL?? A Debate for ever over here! Syn everyone mostly agrees on! 10 W 40 Most agree on then my favorite is what Dr. Doug spoke about Motul! Several of us use Different Motul! Doug uses the Ester based which is about $12 to $14 a quart and Tony uses the Syn Blend at about $6 a Quart and I use e-tech 100 which a few places with free shipping for $100 spent cost about $8 per quart (The e-tech is 50% Ester and 50% Pao) to make the 100% Syn blend! The oil is also a green color (I think) because they use Grape seed Oil which has a very high cling factor!
The only oil I will not use (Only because my bikes sit for long periods of time) is Mobil 1. When you ride every day no problem. When they sit for weeks the oil is very slippery and ALL of it drains back into the crank case making for a noisy and dry start up!
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shane661
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posted August 12, 2008 10:01 AM
Edited By: shane661 on 12 Aug 2008 11:01
Even a regular, high quality car oil is good enough. I used a lot of car oil in my 12R for street and racing. I changed it frequently and the bearings looked perfect upon disassembly after 23k miles, 300 drag passes, and 50+ top speed runs at Maxton.
For street riding I changed the oil every 2000-2500 miles. I changed the filter every other oil change.
While I was racing the bike it would rarely see even 500 miles on the oil (and most of that would have been street miles between racing).
Shane
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entropy
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posted August 12, 2008 10:06 AM
i use olive oil, it smells nice.
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Ken 12R
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted August 12, 2008 10:16 AM
The ZX12 motor seems more like a bigger ZX9 and that series did not suffer much with number 3 rod failures it was more a ZZR1100c model problem but there are plenty of them stll running around with big miles on the motors.
My A model is bored and stroked with an APE 1394 kit this year and so far its run low nines in the quarter mile and three runs over 200mph at Elvington not especially fast but I probably weigh around 300lbs suited up,it will go faster with a lock up because the power was beating the clutch at the weekend.
Can I be a UK rep for team fat ass ??
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johnnycheese
Pro
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posted August 12, 2008 05:06 PM
quote:
quote:
let's see 1270 with a 170+ shot 3+ years together
1375 with a 70+ shot 1 year daily rider and Txmile maxton mile runner.
yep that oiling can be a problem...................................................
NOT!!!
A bit off topic, but which 1270 pistons hold up to 170 hp of spray?!?!?
I've seen that Wiseco makes a 85.5mm nitrous piston, but I never heard much about it.
Shane
the kit from Muzzy
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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KZScott
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posted August 12, 2008 07:57 PM
with the proper prep and setup right JC?
on oil, Im trying RP racing 11 5w20
VH, is Mobil 1 a better oil than Motul e-tech IF you drive EVERY day? (an accululator would solve the dry start up issue right?)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted August 13, 2008 02:32 AM
I used 20-50 mobil 1
I do not run any oil weight light than what stock is.
10-40 on Suzuki's
20-50 on Kaw
and yes set up set up set up
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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VincentHill
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posted August 13, 2008 07:20 AM
quote:
with the proper prep and setup right JC?
on oil, Im trying RP racing 11 5w20
VH, is Mobil 1 a better oil than Motul e-tech IF you drive EVERY day? (an accululator would solve the dry start up issue right?)
Personally I think the reason Mobil came out with the "0" Wt Oil is for "Speed" of oil flow on start up! For "Some things" a slippery oil is better and some things an oil that clings is better. To me there are 2 kinds of Friction going on in an engine, Rolling and Sliding! The rolling is like the Bearing where there is no skidding of the parts against each other like the old KZ1000 with a roller crank! Then there is sliding friction like the cams, Crank and Pistons! For these parts I want an Oil that stays on the part. For an old KZ1000 I would trhink that Mobil would possibly be better for more important parts, but for what I have I would use Motul.
Shane, I Strongly disagree with your advice "Nowadays"! Up until "CAR" Oil reached the S "G" Rating, what you said is 100% true! But the H and J Rating changed all of that with the Friction modifiers for better gas mileage and less Zinc they are harder to keep the clutches from slipping and for when things go wrong! Remember, No car engines have their clutch operating in the engine oil and as far as I know, Most cars do not have their Transmissions operating in their engine oil either! The transmission by its very nature does a lot of the shearing of the oil and is another place the extra Zinc could be helpful!
IMHO
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shane661
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posted August 13, 2008 07:46 AM
Edited By: shane661 on 13 Aug 2008 09:29
quote:
Shane, I Strongly disagree with your advice "Nowadays"! Up until "CAR" Oil reached the S "G" Rating, what you said is 100% true! But the H and J Rating changed all of that with the Friction modifiers for better gas mileage and less Zinc they are harder to keep the clutches from slipping and for when things go wrong! Remember, No car engines have their clutch operating in the engine oil and as far as I know, Most cars do not have their Transmissions operating in their engine oil either! The transmission by its very nature does a lot of the shearing of the oil and is another place the extra Zinc could be helpful!
IMHO
I avoid any oil that makes special claims about friction modifiers and such. I use plain old 10w40 Penzzoil most of the time. The cheap stuff. 
The oil performed well under race conditions and the bearing surfaces were unmolested upon disassembly. And that is good enough for my needs. 
I do agree 100% that there are some car oils out there that need to be avoided! I Just don't know which ones specifically because I have never had a problem with the ones I have chosen. Maybe it's because I use the cheap, "standard" formulas!
Shane
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VincentHill
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posted August 13, 2008 12:26 PM
Shane ALL Car oils are fine for the "Engine" of the Motorcycle it is the clutch plates I am referring to! Also after a short time period the Trans gears start to damage the oil also.
How you you find and oil Nowadays that does not have S J or Higher specifications?
The Cheapest Oil to have an S J or higher rating MUST meet certain testing criteria that "ALL" of the other S J Oils meet.
Please explain to me How you avoid this?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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shane661
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posted August 13, 2008 12:35 PM
Edited By: shane661 on 13 Aug 2008 13:54
I'm not sure what you are asking? Even Repsol synthetic carries an SJ rating, and it is a motorcycle-specific oil intended for racing. Ditto for the Honda motorcycle dino oil I have run.
Here is what I found about the designations:
SG Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge
SH Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability
SJ Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits
SL Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emissions standards
SM Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit protection and wear protection, also better low temperature performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories
Do you think it is therefore the SL and SM oils that would be likely to cause problems?
Shane
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VincentHill
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posted August 13, 2008 12:52 PM
Again, I do not use any oil rated higher than SH. Everyhing you said is 100% true BUT since the rating of SJ, "CAR Motor Oil" Used in "MOTORCYCLES" is not good for the Clutch or the Transmission! Cars do not run a Wet Clutch. Car Engines do not share the Same oil for the Transmission and engine.
Since the Change from SH to SJ the differences between Motorcycle Oil and Car oil have changed to the place where it is not a good idea to use Car Motor Oil in Motorcycles!
If there was NO Difference, then why do you think they would waste their time in making separate oils that all cost about the same thing?? Back in the 80's No Major Oil manufacture produced a "Motorcycle ONLY" Oil. After 1996, THEY ALL DO!!!
You can do anything the way you want but suggesting that this person is OK to use Car Oil nowadays is something I would not suggest! Do you put Automotive Only rated oil in your ZX14? The Busa Turbo? Do you think this guy wants the Best Oil or to put Just Any Oil into his bike??
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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