DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
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posted July 02, 2008 09:07 PM
Lets make one thing clear..... when you DRAG RACE ONLY and you have they motor "balanced" IMO you do not need it. I so not run the 12 on the street. I reserve that for my Turbo Busa.
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DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
   
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 03, 2008 12:16 PM
Its not a balancer. its a COUNTER BALANCER.
So what does it counter balance ?
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 03, 2008 01:25 PM
it goes against my religion, but im going to disagree with DM on adding the squirters since you are running nitrous
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted July 03, 2008 04:58 PM
quote:
Its not a balancer. its a COUNTER BALANCER.
So what does it counter balance ?
the unbalance on the crankshaft
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 03, 2008 05:49 PM
did a little reading on it, sounds like its nothing more than to smooth out engine vibration.
But to me a smoother engine is a happy one., I still like the weight of it.
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DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
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posted July 03, 2008 06:29 PM
Smooth....... hahahahaha you have never seen my passes. 
Actually all BS aside. For you guys who are running on the street and put 100+ miles a day I could see where it would be useful to keep. This aint that kinda bike....... 
If I do 3 miles a day it is casue I made 12 passes 
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DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 03, 2008 06:38 PM
i made 55 passes one wknd...haha yeah burned the clutch up. hey it was my first time racing, tnt wknd open time trials...i couldnt stop 
DJ, did you see the oil pan i made for dads bike?(similar to the coby pan) you can get your bike way lower with something like it
nice pic btw, the 12 is right where it belongs, out in front
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
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posted July 03, 2008 06:47 PM
The bike now has a cut pan on it and with this rebuid it got lots of suspension work and 3" cut forks. It will be in the dirt this time.
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DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 03, 2008 06:58 PM
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 03, 2008 07:35 PM
 Edited By: zrexpilot on 3 Jul 2008 20:36
quote:
Smooth....... hahahahaha you have never seen my passes.
Your right I have never seen your passes, because I am about 15 bikes ahead of you at the 330' mark. hehehe
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 03, 2008 07:55 PM
copy and paste :
Balance shafts are most common in inline four cylinder engines which, due to the asymmetry of their design, have an inherent second order vibration (vibrating at twice the engine RPM) which cannot be eliminated no matter how well the internal components are balanced. This vibration is generated because the movement of the connecting rods in an inline engine is not symmetrical throughout the crankshaft rotation; thus during a given period of crankshaft rotation, the descending and ascending pistons are not always completely opposed in their acceleration, giving rise to a net vertical inertial force twice in each revolution whose intensity increases quadratically with RPM, no matter how closely the components are matched for weight.[2]
The problem increases with larger engine displacement, since the only ways to achieve larger displacement are with a longer piston stroke, increasing the difference in acceleration, or by a larger bore, increasing the mass of the pistons; either way, the magnitude of the inertial vibration increases. For many years, two litres was viewed as the 'unofficial' displacement limit for a production inline four-cylinder engine with acceptable NVH characteristics.
The basic concept behind balance shafts has existed since 1904, when it was invented and patented by British engineer Frederick Lanchester. Two balance shafts rotate in opposite directions at twice engine speed. Equally sized eccentric weights on these shafts are sized and phased so that the inertial reaction to their counter-rotation cancels out in the horizontal plane, but adds in the vertical plane, giving a net force equal to but 180 degrees out of phase with the undesired second-order vibration of the basic engine, thereby cancelling it. The actual implementation of the concept, however, is concrete enough to be patented. The basic problem presented by the concept is adequately supporting and lubricating a part rotating at twice engine speed at the higher RPMs where the second order vibration becomes unacceptable.
There is some debate as to how much power the twin balance shafts cost the engine. The basic figure given is usually around 15 hp (11 kW), but this may be excessive for pure friction losses. It is possible that this is a miscalculation derived from the common use of an inertial dynamometer, which calculates power from angular acceleration rather than actual measurement of steady state torque. The 15 hp (11 kW), then, includes both the actual frictional loss as well as the increase in angular inertia of the rapidly rotating shafts, which would not be a factor at steady speed. Nevertheless, some owners modify their engines by removing the balance shafts, both to reclaim some of this power and to reduce complexity and potential areas of breakage for high performance and racing use, as it is commonly (but falsely) believed that the smoothness provided by the balance shafts can be attained after their removal by careful balancing of the reciprocating components of the engine.[citation needed]
[edit] Four cylinder applications
Mitsubishi Motors pioneered the design in the modern era with its "Silent Shaft" Astron engines in 1975, with balance shafts located low on the side of the engine block and driven by chains from the oil pump, and they subsequently licensed the patent to Fiat, Saab and Porsche.[1]
Saab has further refined the balance shaft principle to overcome second harmonic sideways vibrations (due to the same basic asymmetry in engine design, but much smaller in magnitude) by locating the balance shafts with lateral symmetry but at different heights above the crankshaft, thereby introducing a torque which counteracts the sideways vibrations at double engine RPM, resulting in the exceptionally smooth B234 engine.
[edit] Six cylinder applications
Another balance shaft design is found in many V6 engines. While an optimally designed V6 engine would have a 60 degree angle between the two banks of cylinders, many current V6 engines are derived from older V8 engines, which have a 90 degree angle between the two banks of cylinders. While this provides for an evenly spaced firing order in an 8 cylinder engine, in a six cylinder engine this results in a loping rhythm, where during each rotation of the crankshaft three cylinders fire at 90 degree intervals, followed by a gap of 90 degrees with no power pulse. This can be eliminated by using a more complex, and expensive, crankshaft which alters the relationship between the cylinders in the two banks to give an effective 60 degree difference, but recently many manufacturers have found it more economical to adapt the balance shaft concept, using a single shaft with counterweights spaced so as to provide a vibration which cancels out the shake inherent in the 90 degree V6.
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 03, 2008 08:12 PM
more copy and paste "
A refined engine should be smooth, free of vibration and quiet. These qualities also help the engine to spin freer at high rpm, raising red line, hence power.
Engine smoothness depends very much on the basic configuration of the engine design - no. of cylinders, how the cylinders are arranged (in-line, V-shape or horizontally opposed) and the V-angle for V-shape engines. In case a less favourable configuration is chosen, probably due to packaging or cost reasons, counter weights or balancer shafts may be used to counter the vibration generated in the price of a little bit energy loss.
Strengthening of the engine block, crankshaft etc. can absorb certain level of vibration and noise. Lastly, the use of lower friction parts can further enhance smoothness and quietness.
Smooth power delivery
A cylinder takes 720° crankshaft angle (i.e., 2 revolutions) to complete 1 cycle of 4-stroke operation. In other words, it fires once every 2 crankshaft revolutions. Only the power stroke (expansion stroke) generates positive power, while intake stroke, exhaust stroke and compression stroke consume power, especially the latter. Therefore a single-cylinder engine generates power in the form of periodic pulse. The below picture shows how the power be delivered:
To smooth the power delivery, all engines must employ a heavy flywheel, using its inertia to keep the engine running roughly at constant speed. Of course, the heavier the flywheel, the smoother the power delivery becomes, but it also makes the engine less responsive. Therefore the pulsation manner of the engine cannot be completely eliminated by a reasonably large flywheel.
Therefore we need multi-cylinder engines. While single-cylinder engine fires once every 2 revolutions, twin-cylinder engine fires once every revolution, 3-cylinder fires once every 720 / 3 = 240° crank angle, 4-cylinder fires once every 180° (half a revolution) .... 12-cylinder engine fires once every just 60° crank angle. Obviously, the more cylinders the engine has, the smoother the power delivery becomes.
This explain why we prefer V12 engines than in-line 6, although both of them achieve near perfect internal balance.
Cause of vibration
Vibration is caused by the movement of the internal parts, especially are pistons and connecting rods. The piston and con-rod move up and down periodically without counter balanced by other means. If the engine is a single-cylinder engine, it will jump up and down periodically as well.
In reality, the direction of vibration is not just vertical. Because the connecting rod is not just travelling upward and downward, but also left and right, there is also some vibration in transverse direction; However, compare with piston, connecting rod is much lighter, thus the vibration generated by the left / right movement of con-rod is also much smaller than the up / down vibration by the piston.
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DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
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posted July 03, 2008 08:47 PM
Edited By: DJ_JONES on 3 Jul 2008 21:50
quote:
quote:
Smooth....... hahahahaha you have never seen my passes.
Your right I have never seen your passes, because I am about 15 bikes ahead of you at the 330' mark. hehehe
I would be the first to tell anyone that bike in that form was never really "fast", but it was a bracket bike and man was it consistant. She has won me a plenty of money and trophies at bracket races. Even up to the Friday night before I tore into the bike I won Pro ET in San Antonio. It was just time for something new......
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DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 03, 2008 08:52 PM
I,m just mesin with you.
My 12 wasnt to shabby either, took the e/t championship here 2 years in a row.
I am trying the heads up thing, this year. Taking a break from e/t.
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted July 04, 2008 02:14 AM
quote:
did a little reading on it, sounds like its nothing more than to smooth out engine vibration.
But to me a smoother engine is a happy one., I still like the weight of it.
weight has nothing to do with it
it is NOT part of the crankshaft
it is gear driven all you loose is HP
by removing it you do not lose crank weight.. just wight of the bike
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted July 06, 2008 06:57 AM
as for rotating weight stick cars i know some who went to a real light fyywheel and they thought it messed up thier car. it bogged pulling out and between shifts it felt softer.
i may say it would be like my bike throwing the front up from the 3 to 4 shift and less weight on crank the front will not throw up with the shift.try not to lose torque..i am sure there are pros and cons like someone said the newer 12s are less prone to stall with the heaver crank. yet johns 03 dynowed 6 more hp with the heaver crank than my 00.
so things i know is stick cars have to have mass on the flywheel to keep the rpm up higher. when the engine gets loaded from unloaded.
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted July 06, 2008 12:39 PM
what weight????
Counter balancer is NOT part of the crank
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 06, 2008 03:43 PM
its still engine rotating mass just as the clutch basket is, a heavy basket will also resist bog. or the lighter it is the faster it will spin up .
If its not rotating mass why take it off, is it to lose 2 lbs off the bke ? or 2lbs of rotating mass ?
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted July 06, 2008 04:06 PM
you take it off for the 2% HP loss the gear drag causes.
weight off the bike is weight off the bike
you gain twice
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 06, 2008 05:03 PM
you could just unplug the headlights for that kind of gain, youd gain more by pulling the charging sytem
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted July 06, 2008 09:21 PM
My main concern is windage and extra oil flinging around in the case, then the frictional loss in the gear drive. If you are concerned about the last 1-2% of available power, these are the kind of things where you find it. And yes, unplug the alternator, too.
When you are NA, without any power adders, these things add up.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted July 11, 2008 12:22 PM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 11 Jul 2008 13:30
I'm not going to get into a debate over "why", but we kept the counterbalancer on my 1287 and there's not a faster N/A 12r at Maxton OR TEXAS than mine right now... that includes the big stroker 12's and all the built 14's too.
Keep it and have a smooth engine. If you have a fast/quick bike, you have a fast/quick bike.. removing it will not make or break you.
Good luck with the build up!
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted July 11, 2008 12:58 PM
can you say why you chose to keep it. or was it even an issue.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 11, 2008 01:01 PM
My ZX11 I removed the Counter Balancer and then felt more vibration in the Pegs and handle Bars. I put the Larger Voyager handle Bar ends and used the Rubber washers with the Plys between the Foot Peg Mounts and rode the Bike for about 8,000 miles on the streets! My #1 concern was how that One piece was Whipping up the Oil and all of the Problems the #3 rods were having! Not to mention the Additional Acceleration from the reduced mass!
Side note, when you take the 00 & 01 ZX12 and put the 02 or 03 Alternator system on them, they rev like 2 strokes! As far as I know, Kawasaki put in heavier Cranks to make it easier for the less skilled riders to get off the line better. The first bikes were for the More Skilled riders that did not need this additional rotating Mass
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 11, 2008 01:33 PM
quote:
Side note, when you take the 00 & 01 ZX12 and put the 02 or 03 Alternator system on them, they rev like 2 strokes! As far as I know, Kawasaki put in heavier Cranks to make it easier for the less skilled riders to get off the line better. The first bikes were for the More Skilled riders that did not need this additional rotating Mass
Nox posted the weights of his stuff when he got a replacement crank. the lightest combo was the A crank and B Flywheel like you say VH. i dont think Nox is having any trouble getting off the line with light stuff
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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