DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
|
posted June 30, 2008 04:52 AM
Counter Balancer Question ** Keep it or ditch it?**
Been trying to decide if I should keep or remove the counter balancer in my motor. Whats the skinny on this? Pro and Cons?
I have already had the internals (crank, rod, pistons) balanced by a machine shop.
My machine shop guy says keep the counter balancer for high RPM safety I am just not so sure. Lemme know.
____________
DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
   
|
woppi
Pro
Posts: 1362
|
posted June 30, 2008 05:28 AM
#
for street ridig -- keep it
for drag racing --- kill him !!
talk with entropy -- he is the man - who knows more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
woppi
____________
1st TFA Member / Austria !
" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
|
DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
|
posted June 30, 2008 06:05 AM
Come on Karl..... give up the info....
____________
DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted June 30, 2008 07:27 AM
Karl is busy in Maxton, but ill try to help. we got rid of the balancer on my bike and dads. its supposed to give about 2-3 hp by taking out rotating weight and decreasing oil windage. since it doesnt affect primary balance of the crank, it wont unbalance the crank if you take it off. its Not like a harmonic damper on a v8.
one thing i was convinced to do afterwards however was to add the 2 extra oil squirters in the case. some guys say thats not a required thing as theres enough oil from windage getting to the pistons. BUT we just cut down on windage by taking out the damper.
extra oil to cool the pistons on your 1290 nitrous bike is a good thing! not less!
you can run the muzzy dummy shaft (easy) or take the damper off of the stock shaft and weld the holes shut.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted June 30, 2008 07:37 AM
a pic is worth a thousand words
do you want to just spray 2 pistons with cooling oil or all 4? 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted June 30, 2008 02:34 PM
kill it period
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted June 30, 2008 06:19 PM
keep it
|
DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
|
posted June 30, 2008 06:58 PM
 Edited By: DJ_JONES on 30 Jun 2008 20:13
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Now it is clear as mud 
As far as the picture goes.... if I remove the counter balancer and install the Muzzy Counter Balancer Removal Shaft are you saying only 2 pistons will get oil?
Really.... I dont know. This one is new for me but seeing that I am pretty mcuh building a grudge bike I figured I would toss anything I didnt really need.
____________
DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted June 30, 2008 07:36 PM
Builder and tuner of the fastest N.A.Hayabusa and ZX12 in Texas says "kill it"
there are only two oil squirters in the bike stock.(only sprays two pistons, 2 and 4) it looks like they ment to put four, but just didnt drill and tap for the other two. so on my bike and dads bike i ordered the squirters from kawi (only a few $) and basically "finished" the upper case by drilling and tapping for the other squirters. the brake clean action shot shows a factory installed squirter and one i put in spraying 3 and 4
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted June 30, 2008 07:40 PM
Edited By: zrexpilot on 30 Jun 2008 20:44
crank weight helps bogging off the line and theres less rpm drop between gear splits. Keep it. In my opinion
Light cranks are for road racing,
The car guys have always added weight to the crank for drag racing
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted June 30, 2008 07:49 PM
not to start an argument (trying to promote friendly discussion) but how does added crank weight help the rpm not drop between gear splits(im assuming that means up shifts) wouldnt it drop a set amount regardless of weight as its not an automatic?
i understand the holeshot thing, but i believe that can be compensated for by higher rpm.
in my opinion
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted June 30, 2008 08:09 PM
Inertia and momentum. objects in motion tend to stay in motion.
member ? you member LOL.
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted June 30, 2008 08:32 PM
yeah, i had honours in physics actually....
but we dont have an automatic, and when we up shift gears, the rpm has to drop by a set amount or you get clutch slip. once it drops, it has to climb again, and a lighter rotating assembly will allow that to happen quicker
how many car guys that drag race have a standard tranny? very few around my area...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted June 30, 2008 08:59 PM
Edited By: zrexpilot on 30 Jun 2008 22:01
. Its a bog when you up shift , thats why rpm's drop. heavier rotating mass bogs less. the taller gear puts a load on the engine and slows its rotation.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted July 01, 2008 04:38 AM
junk it
the same angular momentum which minutely resists dropping rpm, minutely resists gaining rpm. Since you are gaining more than you are dropping as you go thru the gears, i say junk it.
That sdaid, i don't think it makes much difference either way, but it does save a couple pounds,...
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
|
posted July 01, 2008 07:07 AM
And we all know that TFA needs as many pounds dropped as we can get!
____________
DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted July 01, 2008 08:37 AM
quote:
And we all know that TFA needs as many pounds dropped as we can get!
counter balancer: "you don't have to diet to like it!"
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted July 01, 2008 01:53 PM
What do you guys think the counter balancer does ?
It does one thing, it counter reacts the torsional twist of the crank shaft.
Mains can suffer from this.
The cases arent strong enough to prevent this. Its there for a very good reason.
|
johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted July 01, 2008 02:18 PM
Nope that is an incorrect statement
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted July 01, 2008 02:43 PM
Ok Mr I smoked more zx12 bearing than you can count.
Explain it to me .
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted July 01, 2008 05:12 PM
i thought it was there so the bars wouldnt vibrate as bad when you are cruising down the road....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
DJ_JONES
Novice Class
Turbo or NOS? Pick your poison
Posts: 46
|
posted July 02, 2008 03:38 PM
Edited By: DJ_JONES on 2 Jul 2008 16:39
:Corn
BTW.... mine vibrated the bars with it in there anyways.
____________
DJ JONES
Humble, TX
2000 ZX-12R (1290 + Wet kit)
2004 Hayabusa (Stage 1 Turbo)
Texas Shootout #1762 & #777
MDB Racing (HERE WE COME)
|
johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted July 02, 2008 04:45 PM
quote:
i thought it was there so the bars wouldnt vibrate as bad when you are cruising down the road....
and we have a winner
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
|
posted July 02, 2008 05:13 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 2 Jul 2008 18:16
quote:
What do you guys think the counter balancer does ?
It does one thing, it counter reacts the torsional twist of the crank shaft.
Mains can suffer from this.
The cases arent strong enough to prevent this. Its there for a very good reason.
I agree its in there for a reason, but it has nothing to do with crankshaft twist or strength of the cases.
It is there to counteract the second order harmonics of the pistons. The engine has inherent first order balance because of the opposing motion of the pistons. Since the piston motion is not perfectly sinusoidal, the difference in piston accelerations create a second order vibration at twice the crankshaft speed. The balancer is designed to oppose this.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/piston_velocity_and_acceleration.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted July 02, 2008 08:56 PM
rgeorge is correct. It has nothing to do with torsionals. Take it out, block the oil. Do not add additional squirts. Removal reduces rotating mass, basic weight, frictional loss and windage. People used to ask me what my ZX-11 felt like with the balancer out- my response- "It feels like a Suzuki".
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC