kawdawg
Novice Class
Posts: 85
|
posted August 01, 2002 03:25 PM
Trade 2000 for 2002?
I was wondering if it is wise to trade in a 2000 12 for a new 2002. Other than top speed what am I am I going to lose by getting a 2002. How much better is a 2002 12. Help please!
  
|
22348bCVC
Zone Head
Posts: 798
|
posted August 01, 2002 03:55 PM
I think that there will never again be another 'historically significant' Kawasaki big-bore sportbike such as the 00' ZX-12R...lots of 'firsts'...and one of the reasons why the manufacturers are toning it down a bit...a brutal bike in many ways...if you're into collecting hi-hp muscle, I say keep it and find a way to get 'other' bikes...I may be reaching, but remember the muscle cars of yesteryear and what they're worth now, not to mention the pride and joy in ownership?...could be more of the same for the 00' 12R...well, at least that's what I hope for 
____________
...just relax...my dog wants to use only one of your legs...
|
ddpete3
Pro
Posts: 1189
|
posted August 01, 2002 03:59 PM
I think the value only goes up if you don't crash yours.
____________
My name is Doug, damnit!
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted August 01, 2002 05:54 PM
Collecting? It will never be within my means. Plus, wouldn't the best value be attained with one that not only had low mileage (which at 34K, mine wouldn't count), but also was TOTAL stock and unaltered (which would cost even more to return mine to that state)?
It boils down to me leaving that "restoration of a future classic" to who ever gets my bike after it is traded in for my next bike. Sadly, that would have even been the case if my '97 7R P2 was actually a '96 7RR N1 (last year it was offered as a "showroom floor" purchase to the general public). Talk about a "classic". It would have had all the earmarks of a true "collectable". Limited production/availability, factory modified version of a similar model (P1) and the last year such a "two versions of" a single model has been offered by KHI.
I would have trade the 7RR in for the 12R with the same ease and lack of regret that I did with my '91 EX500 for the '97 7R AND... I will when I trade my '00 12R for what ever will replace it. Odds are, it will NOT be another 12R. I desperately awaiting the arrival of the ZX-10R A1. God forbid the offer a 10R AND a 10RR!
As for trading a '00 for a '02 and since I've thrown that collectable thought out the window... one would have to ask if the '02 is improved over the '00? That too, can be debated to the end of time. One has to get a little more specific in what they want from their bike in acceleration, handling and comfort.
1. Do you spend a lot of time above an ACTUAL speed above 180? If yes, then the '02 MIGHT not be for you. If no, it's still a draw. Each has their own characteristics when it comes to acceleration. Which is better or how much of a difference really exists again, is easily debatable. Everything from aerodynamics and intake design to throttle pulleys and flywheel weight could be topics of this debate.
2. Does your life revolve around the twisties of roads? If yes, the '02 MIGHT be your ticket. Handlebar height, suspension geometry, spring rates and fork valving have all been changed. Some have gone as far as to say that the '02 can show it's tail light to '00 in the twisties. Even one with a modified suspension and aftermarket wheels.
3. Do you spend more time just cruising around town or two up on major highways. The comfort factor, like the performance factor, is also a wide open debate. Some have raised the bars on their '00. If you have, the '02 might not be for you. The bars on the '02 are lower. The thing is, the footpeg and seat have also been change, so this might be a moot point. It is generally accepted that the '02 does have a slightly more aggressive seating/riding position.
I could go on about appearance, currently available performance products and on and on and... It just boils down to what YOU want. I don't think there would be ANY disappointment on either route.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
|
posted August 01, 2002 08:32 PM
Kawasaki did 140 improvements when going to the 2002 model. These were all changes to make the 12 a better ride. Kawasaki focused on this rather than a top speed war that could no longer happen.
The 12 is more refined, and handles sooooo much better in my opinion. I personally like the new redesigned air intake on the front, the way its molded right into the chassis. 30% more airflow too.
I would say go for the 02. The top speed is there if you want to get a black box to unrestrict it, for only around $50. The new blue color is a limited run if color makes a difference lol.
But go for the 02 model. Unless its worth waiting for the 2003 models. The 03's of the 250 and 500 Ninjas are already on Kawi's website. Soon the 12 will be too I'm sure.
|
beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
|
posted August 01, 2002 08:54 PM
Oooh, and the 02 models of the 12 come from the factory with carbon fiber instrument panel. That alone is worth it.
|
ZHooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
|
posted August 01, 2002 10:33 PM
Personally I think the 00 and 01 look more angulkar and tough if you will. The 02 has been softened. It is probably a nicer overall ride but I think the 00 and 01 look like predators looking for something to kill. Just my opinion.
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
|
Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
|
posted August 03, 2002 01:02 AM
Say what??
quote:
Kawasaki did 140 improvements when going to the 2002 model. These were all changes to make the 12 a better ride. Kawasaki focused on this rather than a top speed war that could no longer happen.
The 12 is more refined, and handles sooooo much better in my opinion. I personally like the new redesigned air intake on the front, the way its molded right into the chassis. 30% more airflow too.
I would say go for the 02. The top speed is there if you want to get a black box to unrestrict it, for only around $50. The new blue color is a limited run if color makes a difference lol.
But go for the 02 model. Unless its worth waiting for the 2003 models. The 03's of the 250 and 500 Ninjas are already on Kawi's website. Soon the 12 will be too I'm sure.
OK.... I'm not trying to make you look like an idiot, but I've had all I can take reading about how great the '02 12R is compared to the '00-'01.
140 improvements? Not likely! More like 140 changes - as in part number (and quantity?) changes! This smells of the typical shit that sales & marketing types like to pull!! There are a few functional changes on the bike and few cosmetic changes - the bike isn't totally re-done! An example - they changed the valve stems on the wheel/tire combo --- how many of the "140 improvements" does that account for? [Hint - it isn't just ONE!!]
The '02 handles better? OK... let's say that's true. How much of that can be attributed to the new D208 Dunlops that come on the '02? [And I'm certain that those tires count among the 140 improvements, too!] Do you really believe that an '02 model will perform NOTICEABLY different in the twisty stuff compared to an '00 model with equally competent riders?
The new air intake provides 30% more airflow? I don't remember Kawasaki making that claim. 30% more intake AREA? Yeah, I DO believe that!
Hey, buy whatever you want - but don't get suckered into believing that the '02 12R is a big improvement over the '00! And, although it may be just my opinion, the '00 model is still the most desirable --- unrestricted, first model year, better looking (that's right - I don't like the new cosmetic changes) and will probably be worth the most (unmolested!) years down the road.
|
bbirdxx2000
Expert Class
Posts: 147
|
posted August 03, 2002 03:33 AM
Gotta go with red 12R Rocket on this one, For the extra $3,000 plus your bike (guessing) are you getting that much more Improvement? as far as handling goes how many people here can ride a ZX12R near 100 percent? guessing 5 Percent. Handling is 80 percent driver. Example we have a guy here in his mid 40's on a goldwing where in the twisties he can stay with the R1 and GSXR1000!!!. Now can you Imagine If this guy bought a ZX12!!!! I can't
____________
9.96 @ 143 stock with flies removed
|
GOZR
Zone Head
GOZR
Posts: 716
|
posted August 03, 2002 08:55 AM
Me too ... Red 12R Rocket is right...
____________
-G
|
TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
|
posted August 03, 2002 10:53 AM
Im a mods freak. As a matter of fact, Im so deep in my bike with mods, could have bought another bike!
The '02s didnt "wow" me that much. As a matter of fact they caught me by suprise with Kawi making updates so soon...lol.
I spent some time near DIDs 02 Blue and I was pretty impressed with its performance! Really changed my mind about them, but Im going to keep my '00 silver (how's that for collectable?? ) and continue to improve upon it.
The intake is of no consequence to me, because I want more than just 30% more intake!! I want 75-100% more intake...ala TURBO!
____________
Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
|
Zx12RNinja
Novice Class
Posts: 59
|
posted August 03, 2002 01:09 PM
I had an 01 crashed it bought an 02. That tell's you how much I liked ZX12R I had no doubt on replacement bike.
The 02 is a more refined ride. Nonthing against 00 or 01, but throotle response and front suspension revalved and added wind protection and two cooling fan's amoung many other thing's on the 02, Like reshaped front fender, 4 1/2 lb's added to crank all add up when your riding the beast. To give you more pleasure from the ride, My only downside to the 02 is ergo's. They are more agressive, But so is the bike in the twistie's. Can't have both. Just ain't phyiscaly possible.
I had quite a few mile's on the 01 beast. And now have 2800 on my 02. Kawi did an outstanding job working on item's that we bitched about on the A1/A2 model's.
____________
Lead, Follow, Or get the hell out of the way.
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted August 03, 2002 10:00 PM
Red 12R Rocket, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you said this...
The '02 handles better? OK... let's say that's true. How much of that can be attributed to the new D208 Dunlops that come on the '02? [And I'm certain that those tires count among the 140 improvements, too!] Do you really believe that an '02 model will perform NOTICEABLY different in the twisty stuff compared to an '00 model with equally competent riders?
It was in response to my statement of...
2. Does your life revolve around the twisties of roads? If yes, the '02 MIGHT be your ticket. Handlebar height, suspension geometry, spring rates and fork valving have all been changed. Some have gone as far as to say that the '02 can show it's tail light to '00 in the twisties. Even one with a modified suspension and aftermarket wheels.
Am I correct in believing this? Since many of the members here have rode with me, it would be foolish (and a LIE!) for me to claim that I am a competent rider. Here's the kicker... I have YET to have even rode a '02 12R! So besides Kawasaki promotional and magazine crap, plus the opinions of Zx12RNinja, Ballistic and DaveinDaytona (all had "A models" and currently own '02 "B models"), what exactly would satisfy your definition of a "competent" rider? A modified '00 12R?
Would this qualify as a "modified" '00 12R?
1270 built by Lee's Performance (210+ RWHP / 110+ ft/lb) with ported and polished heads, degreed stock cams, electric shifter, shift light, Falicon clutch basket, Muzzy clutch hub, Akropovic full system, PCIII, Scotts damper, Muzzy lowering links, braided steel brake lines and Machesini rims w/120/70 &180/55 Pilot Sports.
Well, it might not be the "prefect set-up" for the twisties, but it will have to do for being my point of reference in my previous statement (anybody care to guess who's bike it is).
So, all we need is a "competent" rider, right? Okay. How about someone who has many years experience in many forms of both on and off road racing? A mix of motocross, road racing and an occasional street race. How about someone who has Deal's Gap and all the various parkways as a personal backyard riding playground? How about someone who's "riding buddies" range for current AMA, CCS and WERA expert class racers to "fat ole goats" that can stuff a Gixxer on the right on a cruiser... while SMOKING A CIGARETTE?
Finally, how about a rider, who on the parkways of TN & GA and even on the 318 curves of the Dragon's Tail, while in the company of 40+ 12R and a variety of other sportbikes ranging from Gixxers, 9Rs, modified RC51s and R1s... did nothing but show all of them his tail light, for those "lucky" enough to even see it? Would that qualify as a "competent" rider and one who could both be able to notice the difference and be "objective" about it?
I'm sure that just about everybody has already guessed that I'm talking about Mark "Lucky12" Day and his frightfully fast red '00 12R. Sorry, oldkawboy, I would have given you and your 200 MPH 12R "a plug" too, but that would have given it away too soon (like the reference to "Cuz"?).
Okay, so what, right? I personally, still haven't been on a '02. Show how can I say what I did? Simple. I'm taking the advice that Lucky gave me after riding Ballastic's '02 so he could tweak his suspension for him. His "testing area"? The first 3 miles of the Dragon's Tail. From the wall to the lake and back (6 miles total). His advice? "Don't EVER ride a '02 12R. You'll be so disappointed... with your bike.". He continued to tell me that Ballastic's '02 (which was basically stock at the time and barely broken in) was far smoother, responded better to steering input, had a better seating position for aggressive twisties riding and it's suspension responded better to tweaking then the "A models".
So believe what you want. I can't hold that against you. Hell, you probably have been on both bikes. I don't know. What I do know, is that at least the riders that are faster then me (which would be just about everybody) and have either owned both or at least been on both, say that it handles far better the A1 or A2. If one was to modify the suspension or have some place like Computrak (sp?) or RaceTech do it, one could only think that the '02 would probably be that much better then a similarly modified A1. Since all I'm personally interested in is twisties and could care less about high speed runs, drag racing or top speeds... I'm following Lucky's advice and not riding one (for now).
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
ZHooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
|
posted August 03, 2002 10:25 PM
I put this into the perspective what you like. You can spend your extra cash to refine the 00 and 01 suspension. And I doubt that Kawi has done anything that can't be topped by a competent suspension company. Certainly there are mods that Kawi might have made that would be difficult to replacate. But what they did do with the motoercycle in my opinion was soften the look of the bike and I don't like the look. Much the same as the guy who loves the look of the old dodge truck versus the new look. It is personal taste.
The real question is what you want to spend your money on. You can mod the current bike you have and have something relatively unique or spend all the money on a new bike, wish you had a pipe, wish you could have the suspension done, etc. etc.
Of course this is why they make so many models and colors! So you guys can spend your money!
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
|
22348bCVC
Zone Head
Posts: 798
|
posted August 04, 2002 12:36 AM
 Edited By: 22348bCVC on 4 Aug 2002 01:37
quote:
I think the value only goes up if you don't crash yours.
DICK
____________
...just relax...my dog wants to use only one of your legs...
|
Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
|
posted August 04, 2002 08:22 AM
Redelk-
I can certainly understand how some people will like the handling (the feel) of the '02 12 over the older 12s. Was Lucky actually faster on the '02 through the twisties, or did he just like the feel and set-up better? If he was faster on the '02 - how much faster??
My only real point I was trying to make is that the new '02 12R isn't radically different from the older 12s. If you read the road test in the latest Motorcyclist (or maybe I should say if you BELIEVE what they say in the road test) the '02 12R shares little in common with the older 12R models. And lots of people have evidently misinterpreted Kawasaki's marketing and believe there are 140 IMPROVEMENTS made to the new bike. I was just trying to set the record straight!
I think anyone that owns an '00-'01 model and is considering the possibility of trading for an '02 owes it to themselves to put some saddle time in on the '02 model and compare. The guys that own the '00-'01 models don't always say the '02 is better - some like the '02 better, some have said they like their '00-'01 better and others have said they couldn't really tell much difference. As the owner of a low-mileage, practically mint-condition '00 model that has spent a fair amount of cash on modifications, I know I can't justify "upgrading" to the '02 model! Others may do as they wish!! 
|
4banger
Novice Class
Posts: 33
|
posted August 04, 2002 09:47 AM
I'm slowly becoming a collector, so if I were in your shoes, I would probably keep the 00 12. Although it's value has dropped in the blue books, I still see the 00 as one of the two fastest production bikes ever made, and with the speed wars over, it may be a while before we see anything faster, in stock form. While the 02 probably goes just as fast as a 00 if you remove the limiter, removing the limiter, at least to me, is 'modifying', so the 00 is more desirable for me in that respect.
I also like the looks of the 00; it has a more raw, sinister, aggressive, wicked appearance. Someone mentioned it looks like an owl saying 'oh $hit'...
____________
Busa/ZX12/R1
|
iflyguns
Novice Class
Posts: 83
|
posted August 04, 2002 01:14 PM
Mike your kidding me dude! Don't even consider it, you had the balls to be one of the first ones to buy a peice of history! Not to mention green is mean. Love my 01 w/flames and after talking to you at the dealer thats why i went with the 01 instead of the 02. I know some guys around the Raleigh area who rode mine and said that they liked my bike better! They said the 01 seemed to have more kick in the ass power all at once. They also said the 01 wheelied better also. I didn't get a chance to ride there's due to the fact it was prior to their purchase of the 02's.
____________
Tony D
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted August 04, 2002 08:35 PM
Red, I pretty much agree with you. Sure, the revalved suspension is probably nice and the oval TB pully sounds nice, but for all practical purposes, the two models are NOT that much different.Like tires, brands of oil and just about everything else... it's just individual opinions. That's all. Those folks that are faster then me through the twisties, would still be if I was on a '02 12R or a Ducati 999. It wouldn't change a thing.
I, like the majority of us, have long since quit viewing the magazines as "gospel". I personally, look at the magazines as just another "opinion". Nothing more. I would hold the opinions of you and others here in much higher regard then any publication or corporate hype. Though I believe Lucky preferred the handling of the '02, I don't have either his riding skills or riding style, thus in reality, that does NOT mean that I'd like the '02 or would be able to take advantage of the changes made on it. Then again, I might love it.
For me, it's all kinda moot. My 12R has way too many miles on it to be thought of as "mint", even though I feel like that's what I've spent on it... a "mint". I also do not have the financial means to get another bike and save my '00 as a "collectable". Hell, the bank still owns over half of my bike anyway. After a while, it will be time to "retire" my baby and trade it in for a new bike. When that time comes, I know it will be green, but I'm doubtful it will be another 12R. Hmmmm... sounds like another "opinion", huh?
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
iflyguns
Novice Class
Posts: 83
|
posted August 05, 2002 01:02 AM
Hey Red,
How many miles do you have on your bike now and does it seem as strong?
____________
Tony D
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted August 05, 2002 07:03 AM
34,273 miles.
To answer your question, Yes, it is. It's been "Red Elk" maintained and if I ran it on a dyno today, I'd think that my numbers wouldn't be that different then they were when I last dyno'ed at the first Gap event (178 RWHP/98 ft/lb).
Of course, I don't know how accurate the odo is since I put the -1 up front and the +1 in back last April. What's strange is even though the speedo and the odo get their signal from the same source, the stock gearing had a speed error of about 9% while the odo was just about dead on accurate. I haven't checked to see what the new gearing has done to the odo reading.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
|
posted August 05, 2002 07:41 AM
Well, as far as collectability goes, you never really know what model will be a milestone. For example, I thought that the '69 Camaro SS was the Camaro to have, not the first model. The refinements and styling were much better than the previous model.
Yeah, like many of you I'm personally not convinced that the changes would be worth trading in a current bike.
Here's an easy way to tell: put yer butt in the seat of an '02. Then decide if it's worth the money.
And considering the jaundiced view we have of magazines, my new Motorcyclist has this to say about the 12-R:
1. 50 lbs lighter than a VFR and butt-load more horsepower
2. And I quote: "Good job Kaw"
3. They admitted that the 140 refinements weren't groundbreaking, but they were done in the *right* places to make a great all around motorcyle.
4. Honestly, how many of us are going to miss going over 186? Do that frequently or do you only wish to have bragging rights?
Can't say I disagree with 'em.
I also have a GSX-R 600 and the Kaw is much better at putting around town (only need two gears) and longer trips - a really nice all-round motorcycle that will make 'Busa riders blink...all while I'm quite comfortable, thank you.
|
kawdawg
Novice Class
Posts: 85
|
posted August 05, 2002 01:00 PM
I'll miss going over 186. I like what Tony had to say. Hell with the 2002. I will stick with my 2000 power house!!!
|
Zx12RNinja
Novice Class
Posts: 59
|
posted August 05, 2002 01:54 PM
You don't know what your missing. And I ain't missing nonthing.
Screw the magazine's. But I know what I know from having my butt in the seat of both bike's.
____________
Lead, Follow, Or get the hell out of the way.
|
swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
|
posted August 05, 2002 02:21 PM
I skipped the debate altogether. Bought an '02 ZZR1200. So I have a track bike ('01 SV650), an endurance race bike ('00 1270), a land speed / drag bike ('00 1347) and *gasp* something I can ride on the street. It's got carbs, so it's silky smooth from idle up, and I get that famous ZX11 howl at seven grand, albeit a bit deeper from the bigger carbs. More importantly, it's made for us 'big guys'. Meaning that, out of the box, it's set up better for a 220 lb rider. I could *never* get the 12's stock suspension to work well for my weight. It wasn't until the forks came off and went down to Race Tech, and the shock was replaced with an Ohlins, that I felt like I had a handle on what the bike was doing under me. On the other hand, the ZZR feels very planted, albeit heavy and slow steering. But hey, nobody said you could turn the Queen Mary onna dime! 
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC