entropy
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posted November 03, 2001 03:54 AM
Muzzy steering damper: question
Has anyone mounted a Muzzy Steering damper with fork tubes raised 1" ????
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redelk
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posted November 03, 2001 05:34 AM
Not an 1"
More like a 1/2". I don't think there would be ANY problem installing the Muzzy damper at 1" or at any other distance.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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ZX12ZX11
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posted November 03, 2001 06:47 AM
I have not mounted one but I don't see a problem from these pics. These are of the bike that Doug ran at Bonneville.
After looking at the first pic their might be some problem depending how high the riser is for the dampner. The second pic gives a better view, still kinda wondering. It does look like it would clear.
Ok third pic.
What the hell here is a pic of Doug and the bad ass bike that ran Bonneville.
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KawRider
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posted November 03, 2001 07:14 AM
Go for it
I have one mounted on my bike. The front's lowered about an inch. No problem what so ever.
Tim
00 12R
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
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posted November 03, 2001 03:42 PM
raised?
I've got the clamps dropped 1/2" and it works fine.
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ZX12R
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posted November 03, 2001 04:22 PM
 Edited By: ZX12R on 3 Nov 2001 16:23
Is making a kill switch like shown in those pictures legal at the drag strip ?
Rather crude, but would seem effective.
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SpencerCyclecom
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posted November 03, 2001 04:48 PM
yes it is legal in most racing bodys,as long as it is installed the way it is in the pic.
Doug
SpencerCycle.com
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cliffrandall
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posted November 03, 2001 06:14 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 3 Nov 2001 18:36
Hi guys.....My Muzzy damper is on with the fork tubes rasied up 1 and 1/2 inchs. What a great product, wait until you see the workmanship and the fit, outstanding.
I have sent a pic to fish to post because I don't know how to do it.
Cheers,
Cliff
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fish_antlers
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posted November 03, 2001 06:37 PM
here are cliff's photos:
wow... cliff's bike is CLEAN!
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fish_antlers
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posted November 03, 2001 06:38 PM
Edited By: redelk on 5 Nov 2001 20:00
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY REDELK:
[QUOTE]
Though a tad on the "pricey" side when compared to other dampers, there are several aspects and features that make the Muzzy damper a product that one should seriously consider when damper shopping for their 12R.
INSTALLATION
Probably the most outstanding feature is it's remarkable ease of installation. Not only can it be installed in less that an hour, even an idiot like myself can install it without any help! Installation requires less that a handful of tools and there is no drilling involved. The part that I liked the most is that the only part of the bike I had to remove was the windscreen. When I installed the M Toby on my '97 7R, I had to lower one of the fork tubes for one of the damper brackets. The Muzzy fork bracket is a two piece configuration that was very straight forward in it's design and a no brainer to install.
I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's go back a bit and talk about the instructions that come with the Muzzy damper. In an e-mail, Doug Meyer said, "The instructions are awesomely complete (if I do say so myself).". One thing he failed to mention was how simple they were. I think I spent 10 minutes looking for an additional sheets of instructions. There were none.
The instructions come with step by step pictures (not as good as mine) that make it so simple, you almost don't have to read the instructions at all. NOTE: This is something I would NOT recommend. Not that there are any "hidden surprises" to the installation process, it's just that it's always wise to completely read all of the instructions BEFORE adding something to one's pride and joy. Not only that, but it could save time too.
Anyway, the first step is to remove the two bolts at the base of the instrument cluster bracket. Using the nuts and bolts provided by Muzzy, I installed what I call the "base mounts" for the damper's side brackets. This is my crappiest picture, but it does show one of the "base mounts" in place.
The groove at the center left of the pic is where the bolt for the side bracket will go through. In other words, there's only ONE WAY the side brackets will go on. The side brackets are nothing short of a work of art. The design of these brackets addresses every detailed shape of it's surrounding environment. It was as if my bike was part of the mold use to make them. These brackets easily slide over the "base mounts" and are held in place with a single bolt (each).
A zip tie is provided for each bracket. Again, even the design of the location of the holes where each zip tie runs though, was well thought out. The zip ties are use to very neatly hold the wiring harnesses out of harm's way and keeps them from getting bound up or pinched. The thought of using conventional zip ties (no "custom made" ties) to do this sounds "cheap" at first, but there is a method to their madness. Not only do they protect the harnesses from getting caught on anything, but if any form of maintenance is needed in this area, the ties can easily be cut and replaced. Neat idea.
As shown above, the part that the actual damper mounts to goes in between these two brackets. It too is designed to fit in a very tight area with no clearance problems. As a matter of fact, there is no question of any clearance problems with the whole unit.
The set up is very simple, clean and looks as if it's was "poured" onto the bike. It fits that well.
PERFORMANCE
Though the Muzzy damper is manufactured by HyperPro (with Muzzy specific valving), it's location on the bike is slightly different the HyperPro's. I have a bigger problem with the hardware of the HyperPro mount, then I do with the appearance of the Scotts. Before riding a 12R with a Scotts damper, my biggest complaint was it's almost "Star Trek" appearance. Now that I have rode a 12R with a Scotts, I will have to admit that they are nice and would be an good investment. Still, my dislike for it's appearance still stands. Just a personal opinion.
Ah, but the appearance is not the main purpose of a damper. Both units have their advantages and disadvantages. There is not doubt that the Scotts damper has more features and depending on what kind of dealer you can work out with your parts guy, very similar in price.
Here's a list of some of the Scotts' features (gotta be fair):
Base Valve - adjusts the amount of dampening (resistance) you feel at low or medium speeds.
High Speed Valve - designed to help absorb large, unexpected hits.
Sweep Control Valves - controls the distance of dampening force (or sweep) from the center line out to either side (left or right) until it releases. The damper is then free to move to the steering stop and back to center.
Copied (without permission) from the website of hardracing.com
One of Scotts' claims is that it is that is "infinitely adjustable so you can set it to absorb any range or size of energy impact". I guess this means two things. One, not having settings determined by pronounced "clicks" (like the bike's suspension), means it's "infinitely adjustable". Two, you are always aware of the "range or size of energy impact"... BEFORE you encounter them. That might apply to a race track environment, but unless you ride the same rode and only that same road, everytime you go riding, this aspect seems kinda silly to me.
Yes, I understand that it's promoting the Scotts' ability to be adjusted on the fly. Of course, the Muzzy (and just about every other brand of damper) can do that as well. This is why I prefer the way Muzzy over the Scotts (or HyperPro) in how Muzzy addressed this aspect. While riding, I personally found it much easier to adjust the Muzzy. The adjustment knob is located on the left side of the damper. The Scotts is a knob on the unit which is located at the center of the triple clamp.
When adjusting the Muzzy, it's a very short distance from the left handle bar to the adjuster and my hand and arm remain in a very natural riding position. This allows me to get my hand back to the handle bar quicker (in case of an "emergency encounter", like road kill, cagers, UFOs, etc.). Also, this is where I find the well defined clicks better that being "infinitely adjustable". I feel more confident when I'm sure of exactly how much of a change I'm making. Sure, the Scotts has a "pointer" on it's knob. For me, the would just help me "guess" better on the level of damping.
The actual overall amount of damping is also very close between the two. Being spoiled by my M Toby and it's 25 positions (the Muzzy has 10), I felt that both of them could have had more dampening. The differences between "all the way off" and "all the way on" were too little on both of them. The M Toby could be adjusted from no damping to damn near locking the handle bars and each of it's 25 adjustments made a noticeable difference. Now that's no to say that neither the Muzzy or Scotts dampers could be turn up to the point where it was difficult to even turn the bars. No, not by any means. It's just that for me personally, I would like to have had more.
I never got to spend enough time riding the 12R with the Scotts (it was Lucky's and I was scared shitless of it anyway) and I never really felt the difference between the base and high speed adjustments. I'm sure that there is a difference, but I really didn't notice any and thus wonder if it's any big deal. Feel free to argue the point and you'd probably be right, but it still wouldn't change my opinion of that feature.
I could kinda tell the effects of the sweep controls on the Scotts. A very nifty feature. Still, I'd probably be using the settings of 3 o'clock (54° sweep) or 6 o'clock (the full sweep of 78°). The 33° and 44° would likely be too narrow of a sweep for my tastes. Again, I didn't ride it long enough to confirm this.
Still, at the full sweep setting, it would be like I wasn't using the feature at all. Like I said, it's a nifty feature, but not enough to sway me from one brand to another. Even the ease of installation would not sway me. Some are hesitant about the Scotts because it requires drilling a hole in the frame. Pshaw! With the M Toby, I had to drill a hole about a 1/2" IN SIZE, to mount it to the frame of my 7R. Why the 7R P series doesn't come with a damper mounting point (like the 6R & 9R) beats the hell outta me. Drilling a hole in the frame doesn't really scare me... that much.
So, even though appearance and ease of installation are important factors, it's the ease of use that I feel is most important. I do feel that the Muzzy is far easier to adjust with confidence, then the Scotts. If your like me though, this point could also be moot. On both the Scotts and the Muzzy, I had them cranked up all the way and was wanting more. For those that are more realistic in their demands they place on their damper, either one would work well.
I haven't had it on long enough (less then 1000 miles) to completely develop an opinion of the Muzzy damper, but this is what I've determined so far... If it's the ability to make very minor adjustments to various aspects of the damper, I'd recommend the Scotts. If it's ease of use (especially while riding), the Muzzy takes it hands down. For me, that's why I bought a damper in the first place... to USE it. I realize that dampers are like tires and oil, everyone has a personal prefrence and can argue with very valid points on why their choice is a good one.
Still, after all that being said, I have absolutely NO REGRETS in getting the Muzzy over the Scotts and would recommend this damper to anyone. It's apperance, the ease of installation, it's comparable performance and it's "on the fly" adjustablity, all reassure me that I made the right choice... for me.[/QUOTE]
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entropy
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posted November 04, 2001 01:55 AM
WOW!!!! What a bunch of great responses! Thanks a million, guys! Red, your instructions are fabulous!
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redelk
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posted November 05, 2001 12:16 AM
NOTICE!
There are a few factual errors about my coments about the Scotts damper. From what I have been told, the Scotts damper DOESN'T have have the pronounced clicks that I said it did and that the high speed valving does have an effect. When I rode the 12R with the Scotts, it was turned all the way "full" and I really didn't mess with it that much. Being on the roads neighboring the Gap, I didn't encounter anything that would have brought the high speed valving into play.
After Lucky had rode my 12R with the Muzzy (turned all the way up as well), he said it felt basically equal in the "stability department". That should say a lot, since I'm running a twitchy 120/60 instead of the standard 120/70 (like Lucky). With the forks move a 1/2", the tire lowered the front ANOTHER 1/2". Like I said, Lucky's comment speaks well of the Muzzy. I would have to say that Lucky's felt a tad more stable, but it was more due to the 120/70 then the damper.
After having a few more miles on the Muzzy (okay... a few more thousand miles), I am still VERY PLEASED with it. I still, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, feel that the Muzzy is easier to adjust and provides similar damping to the Scotts. I also wish that it had more damping. Just like I wish the Scotts had more.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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cliffrandall
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posted November 05, 2001 09:08 PM
Redelk......No offense meant my friend, but I'm not sure more dampening would be a good idea. I once crashed a roadrace bike because I forgot to relieve an overly dampened steering damper as I slowed and rolled in to the pits. If there was an emergency on the road, or you simply forget you had it tightened right down, more dampening might cause you to crash. Muzzys aren't stupid, they know this and have probably taken it into consideration when designing the unit. Frankly I've tested mine at 280klm and it works extremely well.
Cheers,
Cliff
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted November 05, 2001 09:18 PM
me too
yeah I've run mine at 185mph two clicks from maximum dampening seems to work well
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redelk
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posted November 06, 2001 12:27 AM
None taken
None at all.
I know exactly what your talking about. I have experienced it both on the track and on the street. In both cases, it was on different bikes, but the EXCACT SAME damper. As I said before, I had an M Toby damper on my '97 7R. I normally ran it around 12~14 clicks (out of 25). One time, while adjusting it on the fly, I accidently turned it up to 19 clicks. As I pulled over into a road side park, I almost hit a concrete parking stop and laided the bike down. Luckily, I stopped soon enough to just tap it.
After I trade my 7R for my 12R, I gave the damper to a friend of mine to put on his CMRA race bike. While we were at an open track day in Henderson, TX, he let me do a few laps on his bike. I did the same exact thing I had done that time on my 7R. The only difference was I almost ran into a fence instead of a parking stop.
All total, I'd guess that I have about 3500 miles with the Muzzy damper. I've have to say that I've encountered just about every riding condition imaginable. It's ranged from extensive, low speed parking lot/gas station maneuvers (complete with oil spots, pot holes and wet pavement) to what would be for me, high speed riding (160's).
I am by NO MEANS a muscular guy, but I have yet to found an enviroment that I would use anything below 8 clicks. The difference between 8 and full is not enough for me to find hazardous by any stretch of the imagination. I really don't even feel any appreciable (while riding) resistence till about 4 or 5 clicks, anyway.
I do sincerely appreciate your words of caution and it should be seriously considered by anyone adding ANY kind of damper to their bike. Your comment about Muzzy is so true. A substantial amout of R&D went in to the Muzzy damper (i.e. using HyperPro's "race" valving). All done by far more competent and experienced riders (i.e. Doug) then myself.
Maybe the M Toby has just made me acoustom to additional resistence. I know it's not a loose head bearing or anything like that. Everything was throughly inspected and adjusted (if necessary) just prior to the damper's installation. It's just that my personal preference would be just a little more resistence (about 3~5 more clicks worth) on the top end and do away with the bottom 5 settings. That's just me.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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dougmeyer
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posted November 06, 2001 01:39 PM
Damping
Thanks for your considered comments.
I've been waiting for someone other than myself to state the fact that if you need more damping than our unit provides, you've got some (serious) other problem, either with your setup or skill level.
I've been puzzled by the references to the supposed superiority of the Scott's regarding the hi/low ranges etc. Remember that that damper (and it's a very good one) was designed for dirt bikes where you get LARGE handlebar deflections and external inputs that need to be controlled.
In a given situation you may NEED to move the bars alot, but at the same time you don't want something external (that large rock) moving them for you. On a street bike you only really need to keep an oscillation from going divergent or even beginning. You rarely need any kind of large bar movement. The function of the damper is really quite different between the two uses. One feature of the Hyperpro that is relevant is that it is "rate sensitive". That is, the faster you attempt to move the damper rod, the greater the resistance.
Doug
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redelk
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posted November 06, 2001 03:01 PM
Edited By: redelk on 6 Nov 2001 15:06
OH YEAH?
...you've got some (serious) other problem, either with your setup or skill level.
Seeing as how I've inspected any possible problems with the bike's setup (exculding the dumb idea of running a 120/60 up front), all I can say is... I RESEMBLE THAT COMMENT (the latter part)! You can throw "education" in with that "skill level". Ignorance is NOT always a "bliss". Geez... reality BITES!
One feature of the Hyperpro that is relevant is that it is "rate sensitive". That is, the faster you attempt to move the damper rod, the greater the resistance.
This is a aspect of the Muzzy damper I haven't really had an oppertunity to "test" or even was aware it existed. Being a rather lethargic rider, I tend to avoid any "sudden" moves (probably explains my extremely slow pace). This aspect of the damper makes Cliff's point all the more important to keep in mind.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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redelk
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posted November 06, 2001 03:22 PM
OH, AND ANOTHER THING!
The very next time I "catch" you being kind and considerate to the point where you DO NOT point out ignorance, lack of experence of flat out stupidity in the installation or use of any Muzzy product (at least in my case)... I'll start calling you "Mr. Meyer" again! 
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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dougmeyer
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posted November 06, 2001 03:29 PM
Red,
The comment was not aimed at you specifically. It was general in reference to comments I saw just after the introduction of our kit. You're an analytical type, are you not surprised at how very little we move the bars once into the counter steering regime? This is one of the most difficult parts of choosing the calibration for a damper. It's hard to get "damping" without movement and once you have it, it's hard not to have too much. It took many tries
to find the right feel. (orfices, oil viscosity, and geometry were all fooled with).
Doug
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fish_antlers
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The Truth is Out There
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posted November 06, 2001 04:05 PM
finally some action! dont you two get all polite on each other now!
"let's get it on!"
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redelk
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posted November 06, 2001 05:04 PM
Fish, aren't you supposed to be doing the dishes or something?
Naw, Doug... your too nice of a guy to outright say that a specific someone has a "misconception" about a product or it's designed purpose. RS would be a perfect example of someone who whithout a doubt, deserved to be taken to school. Yet your professionalism (and the fact theat he wouldn't get it anyway) deprived all of us good ringside seats to the verbal spankin' he so desperatly needs.
Your comments about the Scott's design history is an interesting point. I does lead me to wonder if the valving is any different between a Scotts damper for a YZ250 and a CBR 929 RR, or is the only difference the mounting hardware. Not that it really matters to me. I think I have said enough about the Scotts to prove that I do not feel it's a poor product. It's just not the one I prefer.
Here's some info (slightly "edited") I got from Hyperpro's site that goes into a little more detail. If any part of this is not applicable to valving of the Muzzy damper, please say so. Just a suggestion Doug, ya'll might want to consider using some of this info on your site or at least with the instructions. If anything, to keep boneheads like myself, from calling a lawyer when I hit that concrete parking stop because they had the damper cranked up too much (which I'll STILL probably do... cranked up, that is).
Active Control Design
The Muzzy/Hyperpro is the only active control damper available. What exactly is active control? Active control means that as the steering force increases, so does the damping effect. This results in a smooth easy-handling ride at low speeds combined with heavy dampening during extreme situations. The best of both worlds.
Hydraulics 101
A steering damper works by forcing oil through a hole. The size of that hole determines the amount of dampening. Every adjustable damper except the Muzzy/Hyperpro works by simply adjusting the size of the hole/holes that the oil flows through. The problem with this method is that you have a fixed level of dampening across the entire range of steering inputs. If you want maximum dampening the result is handling that is uncomfortably stiff during normal riding. If you want a smooth ride during normal conditions you sacrifice safety and control during extreme situations.
Why the Muzzy/Hyperpro is different
The Muzzy/Hyperpro damper works in a unique and ingenious way. It has four adjustable holes that are always open during normal conditions. However as steering forces grow, two of the holes start to close. The more force, the more they close. This revolutionary design enables you to ride with a relaxed level of dampening yet still have heavy dampening when you need it most.
Special Heat Reservoir
The Muzzy/Hyperpro damper has a special reservoir to capture oil expanding due to increasing temperature. A moving piston (the damper) creates heat. As the oil has no place to expand it will literally freeze the damper into a solid bar. The Muzzy/Hyperpro damper has the largest expansion reservoir of any damper available. A spring loaded one way valve ensures that the level of fluid remains constant, no matter how aggressive you ride.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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entropy
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posted November 07, 2001 06:20 AM
Edited By: entropy on 7 Nov 2001 06:21
install complete!
Damn, that was easy. Just like RedElk and the direction said, 1 hour easy. Whoever made those pieces has a close personal relationship with a milling machine. Beautiful!
When I read the comments on progressive resistence, I think of forcing fluid thru a hole at different rates, i.e. normal riding vs violent bar action, and it seems that the harder the hit, the more resistence the damper would offer due to it taking more energy to stuff that fluid thru the hole is a shorter time? So, maybe 5-6 clicks would be fine for regular riding and would protect you in the event of an incipient slapper???
Q: after installing the damper it occured to me that my normal method of checking the tightness of the steering head bearings may be flawed. What I do is sling the steering head to my favorite tool, the Harbour Freight electric hoist, lift the forks off the ground, and grab the forks near the f. wheel and try to shake them back n' forth. If they have no movement, I figure all is fine. Is there a better way? How do I know my steering head bearing are tight enough? Red? Ted? Jed? Fred?
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