Grinder_Smith
Parking Attendant
Posts: 14
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posted January 22, 2004 12:00 AM
Way back 15 July 2003, Y2KZX12R posted:
"If you send out the Kawi cams to a good cam grinder they can use a computer and "map" the cam . . . "
There is such a machine called "Cam Doctor" that digitizes the camshaft lobe profile. For my engine project, I will need not just reground camshafts, but new camshaft cores from scratch.
Does anybody know where Cam Doctor files may be obtained?
Thanks,
Grinder
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I am designing a 3749.551cc 60* V-12 engine.
  
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Grinder_Smith
Parking Attendant
Posts: 14
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posted January 22, 2004 12:08 AM
Way back 22 July 2002, Y2KZX12R posted:
"Now that I have 3 dynoed cam timings to use, I can set the varriables in the software with this combo. I should be able to predict . . . "
What is a good engine program? I got a really old version of "Desktop Dyno", and I must choose either "small block" or "big block" for the heads! Ha, ha. Any better suggestions?
I am considering Performance Trends "Drag Racing Analyzer" for gear ratio issues. Any comments?
Thanks,
Grinder
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I am designing a 3749.551cc 60* V-12 engine.
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keith
Expert Class
Posts: 155
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posted January 22, 2004 10:24 AM
I have had some cams reprofiled for my 1270. I have an extra 15 degrees duration on each cam plus .4mm extra lift on both inlet and exhaust. I have installed them on 108/108. The bike dyno'd 194 rwhp on the standard cams but only made 195 rwhp with the modified cams. However the power now holds on right to the limiter at 11600 whereas before it tailed off after 10,800. Doug, I would like your opinion on whether I should now degree them to say 106/106 to get more top end power. I have fitted Muzzy titanium valve caps and springs and purchased some Muzzy adjustable cam sprockets in case I need them. Keith (UK)
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keith
Expert Class
Posts: 155
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posted January 22, 2004 10:27 AM
Sorry - forgot - the bhp figures were SAE. Keith
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted January 22, 2004 08:34 PM
Hey Jim (Y2K) can you help me with these ?'s for my 02 1361 12R.
What is the best cam timing to run for max power?
I also noticed that some people are running certain CAM no's for hot start problems on the 1361 can you tell me what they are?
Thanks a Bunch!
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted January 23, 2004 02:54 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 23 Jan 2004 02:57
Grinder, I have desktop dyno and a full version of performance trends versin also.
The desktop dyno software wont go small enough on stroke to use it for the zx12r. Its better suited for automotive stuff. Performance trends is a much more capable software but its more complex to use.
Both seem fairly accurate at predicting cam timing changes.
I've played with cam specs on paper and it seems you can get good gains in hp above 9000 rpm but it will cost you driveabolity big time below 5000 rpm. It seems kawi went with the biggest cams without killing the low and midrange.
Everything is a compromise.
Supra, As far as a 1361 cam timing combo? I bet Muzzys will have some good dirt on it.
But from what i've seen and heard you have to keep the cranking compression down. This meens keeping the intake cam back around 108 or so with a high comp. 1361 Some people have had starter troubles with stock cam timing.
Doug?
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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keith
Expert Class
Posts: 155
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posted January 24, 2004 01:09 AM
Doug Meyer - I would value your opinion on my post. Keith
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Grinder_Smith
Parking Attendant
Posts: 14
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posted January 27, 2004 09:59 PM
Keith,
About your power holding on all the way to the rev limiter - right on!
I saw the "after" dynomometer chart for a full-on Lee's Performance job, 2/2/01:
ZX12R, 1270cc big bore, 13.6:1, ported head, bored throttles, pipe, cams, and so-on. At every RPM from 3,500 on up, it had _more_ torque than OEM. No losses! Right at 11,500, the HP - 210.9! - was still sharply rising! The ZX12R engine has serious potential! (All it takes is more dough?)
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Y2KZX12R,
I was hoping that you had found a program that was really optimized for this sort of an engine. I still wonder about getting Cam Doctor files (any suggestions?). I bought such an old version of Desktop Dyno because it was, uh, 'free', with the (expensive!) book a few years ago. I am unfamilliar with the features of the newest version; Performance Trends seems to have a decent program, according to their WWW site.
Compromises? Acknowledged. That's why I was so surprised at the fatness of the Lee's torque curve - I mean, if a rider is down at 3,500 RPM (still +7!) he really isn't serious, anyway!
My approximations of the data: (Magazine bike was showroom)
RPM: magazine: - - - Lee's ZX12R (modified as above)
03,500 RPM: 65 - - - 72 (lower extent of the Lee's chart)
05,500 RPM: 80 - - - 83
07,500 RPM: 91 - - - 106 (OEM torque peak)
09,000 RPM: 86 - - - 108 (Lee's torque peak)
10,000 RPM: 81 - - - 102 (just big numbers!)
10,500 RPM: 75 - - - 99 (just big numbers!)
11,000 RPM: 65 - - - 98 (just big numbers!)
11,500 RPM: 50 - - - 96 (upper extent of the Lee's chart)
Anyone care to hazard what hapens when the torque increases by 92% from 50 to 96 - at 11,500 RPM?
Yow!
Even if I knock off 10% or so for dyno envy, this is still some balls.
Thanks for the replies,
Grinder
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I am designing a 3749.551cc 60* V-12 engine.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 28, 2004 01:58 AM
Edited By: entropy on 28 Jan 2004 02:04
quote:
Anyone care to hazard what hapens when the torque increases by 92% from 50 to 96 - at 11,500 RPM?
no need to guess, had my bike on the dyno last Sat with 108/106; builder (JohnnyCheese)isn't satisfied with results at 9000+, so we'll try 109/111 v soon.
note: Johnny's dyno typically reads low...
_______torque__hp
4000____85____65
5000____96____91
6000____104___119
7000____114___152
8000____124___189
9000____119___204
10000___111___212
11000___101___213
11600___95____213
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted January 28, 2004 05:14 AM
looks great to me 
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 29, 2004 01:43 PM
we're gonna try all kinda shit tomorrow.... THE MOTORHEAD had some wierd tips for Johnny Cheese. we'll try 'em, cause TMH is THE MAN!!!
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted January 29, 2004 02:30 PM
what rpm would you shift from looking at the chart?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 29, 2004 05:27 PM
ninja12,
I have had best results shifting as close to redline as I can get wo/hitting the limiter. Lots of folks have lots of opinions on this...
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted January 30, 2004 04:35 AM
So was the red line on the tach or dyno?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted January 30, 2004 10:01 PM
quote:
we're gonna try all kinda shit tomorrow.... THE MOTORHEAD had some wierd tips for Johnny Cheese. we'll try 'em, cause TMH is THE MAN!!!
I am tried but I am happy.
Karl I hope you are too.
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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keith
Expert Class
Posts: 155
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posted January 31, 2004 01:31 AM
Grinder - thanks for your reply. My bike makes peak torque of 110 at 8,000 rpm. I'll get Lorcan to post the dyno pull (which is in STD). I can't work out how to add attachments on this site. Doh!! Haven't had an answer from Doug yet as to which way he thinks I should go with the lobe centres to get more top end power. I'm thinking of trying 105/108 but I'm 280 miles away from my dyno and it takes a while to find out results. By the way, we did a run to determine the time on of the injectors - worked out to 80% which is getting near the limit. I have the Muzzy fuel pump but am looking at modifying the fuel pressure more to overcome this potential problem. Keith
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Grinder_Smith
Parking Attendant
Posts: 14
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posted January 31, 2004 08:56 PM
"Wow!" hardly covers it.
My only fascination with the Lee's build up is that it was the first that I got data on. I read that yous guys are getting into that range, and a bit beyond. That's why I like this engine.
Grinder
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I am designing a 3749.551cc 60* V-12 engine.
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