RobMuzzy
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posted July 25, 2002 09:08 AM
I do not have enough time to address this thread properly right now. For your info I have just finished a three week (638 pulls)cam and cam timing test. MUZZYS recommends 105/103 lobe centers with stock cams. We will have cams available for 1270cc or bigger with improved top power in the next 30 days.
  
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 25, 2002 10:39 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 25 Jul 2002 11:40
Rob, sounds good. Looking forward to seeing more info.
Red, It must have been Fish that I was thinking of with the honda joke.
I'll have to put a CBR on the hook and see if he nibbles at it!!! 
They taste good Fish, The cbr1200 might be just the right lure for you. ??
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PaulVincent
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posted July 25, 2002 10:42 AM
Edited By: PaulVincent on 25 Jul 2002 11:45
Y2KZX12R, I just read the September 2002, Motor Cyclist, and I think now that I know why this and other American ragazines never gave the 2000 ZX12R or any ZX12R its due. These sentences end the first paragraph and resume in the second paragraph of the Kawasaki ZX12R Road Test article: "Kawasaki couldn't let the paying public cash the check they'd written, so the ZX12R engineers shuffled back to the drawing board for a more sensible go,"
"That's fine with us, The 200 mile-mph streetbike thing was an exercise in overkill, anyway....Besides, well-heeled seekers of excess ....don't want a motorcycle that does something they can only lie about at church softball games."
As I read this, Motor Cyclist really is at odds with the idea of superbike owners having the choice of purchasing a 200 mph superbike (without having someone spend time and effort to "sort things out"). Since they aren't in favor of such a bike being available, it simply shouldn't be available to anyone. Also in a sidebar about Rickey Gadson and Muzzy's, they sell Rickey and his bike short, "Suzuki Hayabusas and GSX-Rs dominate, but Gadson's a Kawasaki guy." The whole thing reads to me that Motor Cyclist cannot stand the thought that the ZX12R is and has been the top performing Superbike. And beyond this, they even include a line that implies that the ZX12R with an advantage of 17 hp over the GSXR 1000 still lacks enough hp to make up for its 110 lb weight disadvantage compared to the 1000.
"Okay, so it's 110 pounds heaver than a GSXR 1000 and the 12R's 17 extra horsepower can't compensate for that much fat." They write fiction; but pass it off as fact.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 25, 2002 11:27 AM
Paul, I couldnt agree more. They write nothing but personal opinion. And baseless "facts".
Try subscribing to roadracing world and cycle news. They are much better at reporting whats going on in the industry.
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ZHooligan
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posted July 25, 2002 05:25 PM
Kawasaki needs to put more adds in their magazine I guess. It is pretty obvious that in most cases the various magazines have a bias and the contests are decided prior to starting.
The Brits love the R1 so in their shoot out where the R1 was effectively thrashed by the GSXR the R! wins because of the the name starts with a Y catagory or some other bullshit catagory. The 996 Ducati is a classic. It has been thrashed by the Mille R in every shoot out and test since the Mille came out in 2000 and yet the Ducati wins because of the catagory called "sex appeal" or the "because it is red catagory". I rack up most of the ZX12 tests in much the same way. The magazines have not foregiven Kawasaki for not coming out with an out and out Busa killer. You must admit Suzuki rewrote the book with the Busa. The bar was raised by leaps and bounds. Had Kawasaki released the 12 first things would likely have been different.
I am irritated at Kawasaki in that they knew what Suzuki did and did not pump the 12 of a tad more to thrash the Busa. Kawasaki reacted much like Honda has with the 929 and now the 954. Both companies decided that they wanted to finess the public and not kick everyones ass. Unfortunately, this has not gone over well with a lot of people and specifically the magazines. At least Honda was smart enough to provide a bone stock (of course! Yah right!) average run of the mill Blackbird for testing in 97. With that bike they beat the ZX11's record top speed by merely a mile an hour or two. But they beat it and that is what everyone remembers.
I like the 12 because it is lighter, turns better and is frankly better looking. And it pisses me off that Kawasaki couldn't provide a bike for testing that kicked the Busa's ass. And isn't funny how no one has honestly and factually ever seen or heard of another Busa other then the test bikes the first year that went as fast as those tested!!! And magically the following year the bike was slower without any limiter. Sounds like Suzuki was a little smarter in their marketing.
Incidentally, I own a GSXR1000 and it one helluva bike. But from a hundred on it does not create the excitement my 12 does. The 12 is an animal.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 26, 2002 12:46 PM
Z, yea that what it is... they can get any kind of reader base so they are pissed at Kawi for not taking out more adds to pay the bills.
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fastestr1
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posted July 28, 2002 11:52 PM
Rob have you done cam checks for the 02 also or do you reccommend 105/103 for the 02's as well?
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koz
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posted April 24, 2003 08:24 AM
Yes, lets call a spade a spade!
There is a BIG difference between Robert and Muzzy's/Doug, as far as helping us and the 12. First, Robert is a shit throwing asshole that has done absolutely NOTHING for the 12. As a matter of fact all he's done nothing BUT badmouth the 12 and their owners, ever since he sold his 12. When he had the 12 he made it a point to tell everyone how fast he was, and that he was not going to share ANY information, nothing. He cried about how he spent time and money, and that we would have to do the same thing. .
Now Muzzy's/Doug, have done more for the 12 and us then ANY other after-market manufactures, period. Not only have they done allot for the 12, but also for motorcycle racing in general. Through the years of surfing the net and going to the track, I've heard many stories about how Rob/Doug have helped people when they were in a spot, broken parts, information, and many different situations where they helped, even their competitors. If I'm not mistaken they even help that LOSER, Robert. I've seen MANY thank you/s written on the internet. More then ANY other after-market manufactures.
For the record, Rickey proved that the 12 was/is a great bike by running sub 9.5, with Muzzy's help, before Robert even had a 12. The only thing Robert proved was that he is a selfish, self-centered, shit-talking LOSER.
Koz
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oldkawboy
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posted April 24, 2003 09:24 AM
C'mon Koz don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel about Robert.
Dan
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VincentHill
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posted April 24, 2003 10:23 AM
Y2K, Neatest thing I have seen in years. Also Thanks to Mr. Muzzy also.
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Koz
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posted April 24, 2003 11:14 AM
Dan,
Thinking about going down to Maxton in May, you going to be down there?
Koz
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oldkawboy
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posted April 24, 2003 12:20 PM
Koz,
Looks like the next and only date for us to be going back and running is Oct.25 & 26th.
I'm actually off for the May meet but Zack & Chad are working. If you guys are going for sure, keep me posted and maybe the Mrs. and me will come over and spectate some.
I talked with Y2K before dialing my cams in and he stated the same results Muzzy did on the cam timing, that's why I went with the numbers for the top end.
It's GREAT to have all this help around and I'm appreciative of the folks who are willing to share.
Dan
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Y2KZX12R
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posted April 24, 2003 05:58 PM
I posted the link to this old thread, in the other thread to help shed some light on the topic.
VH, what part did you find interesting?
Rob, I'll buy ya a java if you put together an "advanced cam timing class".
I'm shure I could learn a thing or two.
Like the relationship between intake valve area and throat cross sectional area. And throw in some optimal cam ramp info like seat speeds etc.
Thats the stuff I cant calculate nor have the time or money to test.
Thanks
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 07, 2003 03:53 AM
Doug, Rob, Any chance of some trickel-down of cam info from that 600+ run session on the zx12r cam timing?
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aliveagain
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posted July 07, 2003 05:17 PM
Has anyone gone real anal about setting all the valves to maximize the lift and duration yet and what was the result?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 14, 2003 02:09 PM
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ra12r
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posted July 14, 2003 04:11 PM
Trickle down,,,,,,,,would be a pleasant surprise. But seeing that Coby has the bike going faster, maybe we are asking the wrong person for cam advise?!?! Aren't the duration on the muzzy cams and the stock cams the same?!
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aliveagain
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posted July 14, 2003 05:25 PM
Y2 isn't there a wide area for shimming the valves and although one would have to check it more often,theoretically,you could get the most lift by setting the shims for the least allowable clearance,no?
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ra12r
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posted July 14, 2003 08:12 PM
yes you could get more lift by decreasing the duration but it is not much, .005-.010 at the most i believe.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 15, 2003 04:40 AM
Yea in theory you gain lift and duration with a tighter lash.
But its not the total lift at max valve lift that makes a difference. Its the seat timings and where valve starts to open thats more critical. The lash needs to be taken up (or down) to zero before the valve acceleration can happen. Lobe ramps are a cam grinders own design. You can take 5 cams of the same total lift and duration at say .050" and on the dyno they can have very different manners at different places in the power band. Cams made for drag racing ONLY are very different from a street cam that has to last 20,000 miles. If you are using the absolute best valves and springs and you only dragrace the engine you can grind very agressive opening and closing profiles even thou the cam specs will look on the cam card like they are the same.
If you send out the Kawi cams to a good cam grinder they can use a computer and "map" the cam and offer sugestions to reshape the cam without actually changine the advertised lift and duration much at all.
but you dont get somthing for nothing. Either durability or driveability at lower engine speeds will suffer. For some this is not a concern.
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aliveagain
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posted July 15, 2003 01:47 PM
Was just curious.I see alot of riders spending some good hard earned cash for an extra few ponies and I have not read about this on any other post yet.So you're saying it wouldn't have any performance gain to run the valve lash tighter?Thanx for your reply,my brain has been in a fog for 20 years(drugs)and I find the tech stuff really interesting.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 17, 2003 03:59 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 2 Aug 2003 05:11
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 02, 2003 04:12 AM
quote:
I do not have enough time to address this thread properly right now. For your info I have just finished a three week (638 pulls)cam and cam timing test. MUZZYS recommends 105/103 lobe centers with stock cams. We will have cams available for 1270cc or bigger with improved top power in the next 30 days.
Doug, Rob, is there any chance of getting any info from the test sessions?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 05, 2003 04:42 AM
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 20, 2003 11:51 AM
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