Y2KZX12R
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posted July 21, 2002 03:44 PM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 23 Jul 2002 16:03
Cam timing dyno chart...
Heres the difference between 105/100(blue) and 103/101(red) cam timing.
The only changes I made between the two runs was the cam timing.
This dyno consistantly shows about 6 hp less than 2 other DJ 150's I use. But both of these runs were done on the "not so happy" dyno.
   
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ra12r
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posted July 21, 2002 06:44 PM
What is the HP comparison for the two settings?!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 21, 2002 07:04 PM
I'll have to make a bit map of the hp graphs and post it. I dont have a scanner so I have to do it that way.
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oldkawboy
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posted July 21, 2002 08:32 PM
Jim,
Where did you end up leaving yours set on? Since my 105/100 worked good for Maxton I may change mine back for a little more grunt. I had my engine out when I degreed mine, is it as bad as it looks still in the frame? Thanks,
Dan
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swft
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posted July 21, 2002 08:45 PM
It's not hard to do in the bike. Mike Velasco dialed in my cams on my 1270 with the motor in the bike.
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frEEK
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posted July 21, 2002 11:26 PM
k, stupid Q here, but what does the timing stand for? i assumed intake/exhaust duration, but i cant imagine thats it cause changin that should be super difficult. so is it jsut degrees betore/after tdc or soemthing?
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entropy
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posted July 22, 2002 12:16 AM
DAMN!!!
I don't get the pix!!!!
My cams should go back in today, 106/108...
I am VERY interested in this topic and will be paying the bux to look for the optimum timing by set - dyno - reset - dyno...
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 22, 2002 02:03 AM
Dan, Right now the cams are at 102/101. For the street it feals much better in the twisties.
Freek, the numbers are the centerlines of the cam lobes. 102 is intake. 101 is exhaust. Typically the first number is intake and the second is exhaust.
Entrophy, with your combo thats what you'll need to do. Trial and error.
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ra12r
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posted July 22, 2002 04:09 PM
It is interesting that up to 9500 rpm 102/101 makes more hp and then for only a range of 1500 rpms it is 2hp less than 105/100.......hmmmmm
Overall that would make the 102/101 a stronger setting!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 22, 2002 08:15 PM
RA, yea for the street its more fun. The engine is generally smoother also.
But like you pointed out its not best for top speed or even dragracing.
Now that I have 3 dynoed cam timings to use, I can set the varriables in the software with this combo. I should be able to predict almost any response to almost any cam timing changes I do with this particular engine. This last set of numbers was very close to what the software predicted. I basically need to decrease the value for overlap by about 20%. It seems this head isnt quite as sensitive to large amounts of overlap compared to less shallow chamber heads.
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redelk
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posted July 22, 2002 09:52 PM
To the ignrant folks like me, all I can say is GAAAAAAAAAW-LE! SHAZAAM!
It just makes me wonder all the more on what would be the ABSOULTE BEST for the twisties and which one (intake vs. exhaust) makes the most difference when changed? What would happen if they were "retarded" (Hell, I don't know what you'd call it!) to something like 101/101 or even something like 100/99? Since every engine has it's own "personality" would the changes still have a basically consistent response from engine to engine? Not necassarily numerically, but percentage wise?
Not that I could do it myself or afford to have someone do it for me, but I'd just be curious to know.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 23, 2002 05:18 AM
Well Red,
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the other night so I'll try and answer your questions. 
As far as "absolute best" cam timing for twisties? From the info I have to work with, retarding the exhaust a degree or two will give a little more push time on the piston. If the BSFC (fancy acronym for fuel comsumption rate on a break dyno) is higher than it should be for the HP output at the peak torque that occures at aprox 7600 rpm, then giving the engine more "pushtime" would produce more torque at the peaks of volumetric efficiency. These peaks come in and out of phase on well tuned "Otto" cycle engines. (4 stroke cycle)
These phases are manipulated by intake tract length and diameter. If you look at the torque graph you will see these phases as they come in and out as the RPM rises. There are first order second order phases etc. They are seen as humps at regular intervals. Typically the strength of the phase peaks can
be manipulated by the diameter, and the rpm that they occure at can be manipulated bt the overall intake tract length. From the tip of the velocity stack to the valve seat.
When the engineers decide on a port volume they are tuning the powerband charactoristics of the engine. So for a road racing machine you would typically want a smaller diameter port that is longer.
For peak power you would want a bigger port that is shorter. Too bad we didnt have "chineese finger" ports that got shorter and fatter as rpm rose. The computer could controll it and we would be at peak VE at all times.
Well this is 2002 and we dont have that yet.
So we work with what we are given. The head and induction system was focused on peak HP from the very beginning.
This is why the bore stroke ratio is what it is and the ports and throttle bodies are so big.
So trying to make the engine be like a (dare I say it?) Hyabusa engine is inherantly oppisite of what the engine was sesigned to do. This is also why the 12r makes more HP with less cc's than the Hyabusa.
So by trying to make the engine run better down low you have to trade off somthing. And thats peak power.
However you cant just keep trading off peak HP for midrange without changing major components like cams throttle bodies etc. Like most things in life the returns start to deminish rather quickly.
So the short answer is 101/102.
This would be about the limit that would be "acceptable" without loosing more
than about 8 peak hp while gaining about 4 more hp down low. Unfurtunatly you have to give up about 2 for 1 with that cam timing. Go even more and you would give up about 12-14 peak hp for just 1 or 2 more down low.
But the more you go out from the known with this software the less reliable the predictions are.
Unless you actually try it and "re-align" the software for that range.
I have to get back to work now...
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frEEK
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posted July 23, 2002 10:32 AM
i know some car engines r using dual length intake runners now (or is that just prototype engines?) to help w exactly that. but u have an interesting point about the chinese finger style runner. i can actually see that may be possible to some extent. but prolly wouldnt be reliable enough or last long enough. now just infinitely variable length runners wouldnt be too hard, but varying the diameter is of course trickier. could vary the opening at either end with a nozzle like on a fighter jet engine, but i dont think that accomplishes what needs to be done.
i tell ya, i look forward to the day when engines r variable compression, use electromagnetic valve actuators and fully dynamic intake and exhaust tracts. damn they'd sip gas like Loui XIII liquor (or whatever its called) but kick ass like bruce lee.
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ra12r
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posted July 23, 2002 11:33 AM
I am very glad that y2k is giving us some EXTREMELY helpful information about cam settings!!! It is crazy that it has taken for y2k (as a non parts supplier,,,,,and non Kawasaki icon) to do his own research and then share the info to learn this............  I just wish that Doug would have shared this type of information 2 years ago and frankly would still step up to the plate and share it now. I remember when everyone dogged out Robert Suprenaunt for "not sharing" openly his zx12 info. Yet the board worships Muzzy, and Doug does the same thing that Robert did, and it is okay?!?!?!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 23, 2002 01:38 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 23 Jul 2002 16:07
Well lets be fair and look at it from different angles.
Bike shops earn their bread and butter from doing these types of mods. They have to spend countless hours of R&D to find this stuff out. They deserve a return on the invested time and money. Right?
So for a bike shop to hand out valuable info is very rare. There is info that I've aquired over the past few years about the Hyabusa engine for instance, that I have never posted and wont. Its not my info to post.
For an example, I'm friends with Freddie at EasternCyclePerf.com and often I see projects in the works that are cutting edge and he may not want to share ANY info about it to ANYONE. The Hyabusas he builds are some of the fastest in the country and hold track records. Now if I were to post His "secrets" on line how happy would he be?
Muzzys is in much the same boat. They have bills to pay and have to try and be competitive at the track too. Also I dont think they invest huge amounts of time in zx12r R&D. I really dont think there is as much interest in the zx12r as there is in many other bikes. I would bet the zx12r gets a smaller slice of the R&D pie than you think.
The more your involved in the less all the involvements get.
I suppose if you had Freddie build you a kickass engine and you took it apart and reverse engineered it then its your info. You paid for it. But would you want to share what you paid thousands of dollars for with the whole world?
Some may.
This is a hobby for me now. And early on I knew this bike was much better than the american press made it sound. Even before I bought one in 2000 I was annoyed that these american rags were ripping it up when they are the most...... nevermind.
So my goal was to prove them wrong. I wanted every last zx12r out there to do the mods I posted in the summer of 2000 so that "things would happen" on the streets. Busa owners would have to respect the bike reguardless of what they read and were told.
I think the real heros are the guys that are taking these 12's to the track and gaining realworld info and sharing it. That info is worth more than any theory any day. Sometimes you just cant calculate some things.
Some of you guys might not like to hear this but I'm not brand loyal to kawasaki per say. I've had all makes, and yes even (dont tell RedElk) Hondas!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 23, 2002 01:50 PM
Freek, varriable length has been around sence the 50's that I know of. Mclaren had a system that used rack and pinion to change the length in the F1 cars.
Watch Honda. They have a new head and FI coming out for the new cbr1200xx. This may be the first true closed loop sportbike. I saw a picture of the new cylinder head casting for it about 4 months ago. Its going to have some seroius HP potential. I dont know what power honda will decide uppon to release to the public but it should have some seroius potential.
I might just have to get one.
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Zhooligan
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posted July 23, 2002 02:43 PM
I must agree with you Y2K Muzzys and the rest of the highperformance people make their livings workin on and perfecting these bikes. It is in no way shape or form their obligation to give away what they have in effect paid for in sweat, parts and dollars.
As most of you probably know Swft and I use Mike Velasco of MVR Racing when it comes to our mods and performance work. He has learned his craft through years of experience and experimentation. I have seen him destroy heads experimenting on size and shapes of ports etc. Cam work, valve work etc. He does this looking for every advantage. He pays for those experiments and it is rediculous for others to believe that the info should be given for free. Much the same as with Muzzy and Doug.
And last but not least,I kind of fall in your not brand loyal catagory. Aprilia Mille R, GSXR1000, RC51, VTR Superhawk, XX Blackbird, ZX12R, GL1800, YZ250F. It is a little Honda heavy!!
And as usual I believe it will be Honda that does raise the technology bar again as usual. With the V-tec stuff etc.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 23, 2002 02:59 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 23 Jul 2002 16:02
 ra 12r, I just realized you put the word Muzzy and Suprenaunt in the same sentance.
I think you better apologize to everyone.
RedElk, whats the punnishment for that?
Ya know... I just realized I put 102/101 for the red line. What a freggin bone head.
Its 103/101... jeez.
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redelk
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posted July 23, 2002 04:58 PM
Z, to even see "Supernut's" and Muzzy's names together is enough to send me over the edge. I will proudly take the title of one of the loudest "barkers" that dogged RS over both his unwillingness to share and his relentless slamming of Muzzy.
My reasoning about the "sharing" was solely due to his taunting his performance claims without sharing how he attained them. Sure, he shared some of it, but it was only after what seemed like months and had already been either discovered or improved upon by those that were willing to share (Y2K comes to mind here).
Drag racing, smag racing. I really don't care. If one want's to smack talk, don't do it about mods for a bike that is both new and has a group of owners that were desperate to prove that they did not make a stupid choice when the bought their 12R. It reminded me of those bratty little kids that would tease and torment the animals at the zoo. FUCK THAT!
As for his slamming of Muzzy, I had to look at that from a small business owner's viewpoint. He "comments" of how Muzzy "screwed" him would be a businessman's worst nightmare. If anything, Doug need to be credited for being amazingly level headed and restraint when most of us would have been sucked right into RS's little pissing contest.
His slams were so skewed that it was difficult enough to even figure out what the hell he was whining about. First he would thank them for bailing his ass out over some clutch problem he was having and then he was attacking Muzzy like they had kidnapped his baby daughter. I wouldn't take his word on directions to the frickin' bathroom, much less his advice on any manufacturer of aftermarket parts.
When it comes to "tricks" discovered by individuals... smak talk = bull shit. When it comes to "tricks" discovered by industry related manufacturers... silence = trade secrets.
I know that our 45 year old company would not be willing to share everyone of our hard learned lessons on some forum. For one thing, why give an advantage to our competition and for another, if we did and it wasn't fully "researched", how would that make us look to clients as well as to others in our industry?When one reviews what many of the early "trick" involved and their "backyard" nature (TPS adjustments, etc.), I don't think that many manufacturers of aftermarket goods would have really wanted to risk their hard earn reputation on sharing such information, anyway.
Not that these mods weren't any good, but for a manufacturer to suggest on an internet forum that someone could realize some kind of gain by elongating the mounting holes of their timing pick up... well, I think I've made my point.
Many have said that Robert is both a nice guy and a fierce competitor. That's fine, but as a business owner, his very public comments about Muzzy are unforgivable when his "facts" backing them up were weak at best. As for his "record", I wasn't that impressed with his skills. Of course they are far better then anything I could do on twice the bike, but I'd put my money on Mad Mike before I would RS. I'd like to at least afford dinner that night.
I'm no more loyal to Doug or Muzzy then I am to any other manufacturer of motorcycle products. Still, I do have to respect the fact that the folks at Muzzy (and DynoJet) are unique in being one of the few that actually take the time and trouble to visit web forums and not for just the purpose of selling their latest "go fast widgit"... but to share information and answer questions.
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Y2K, you have me mistaken for someone who bleeds green. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm just dealer loyal. Now if my dealer sold Suzukis, odds are that I'd be posting at LAB's GSXR1000 forum, instead of here. Since he doesn't... ya'll are stuck with me.
As for Hondas, you can thank them for being responsible for my getting back into bikes, post my divorce. The "guilty party"? Try an old XL250S that was the last of the 6 volt XLs and had a 23" front tire. I put a Wiseco piston, White Brothers cam R&D valves and springs, jet kit and a Cobra pipe (I think). It's was the first 4 stroke I had ever worked on. This probably explains why I don't know much, since it blew up 3 months after I sold it!
When it comes to not only their fit and finish, but more importantly, their engineering (and the amount of $$$ they spend on it), Honda has always been head and shoulders above any other manufacturer. That probably why Honda sells as many bikes in just the U.S. alone as KHI does world wide. A "good product" at a "fair price" will always sell, IMHO.
You'd think that the others would have learned this after getting "taken to school" by Honda for around three decades. H-D has. Just compare any AMF Harley to the V-Rod. On second thought... don't bother. You might not have eaten dinner yet. Sure, I might be over simplifying and there are several more factors involved, but I think you see my point.
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oldkawboy
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posted July 24, 2002 12:00 AM
Y2K,
Let me get this straight.....I get on this board and read enough of your post to realize you are one smart fella, then I e-mail you no less than a dozen times for info on cam timing, bumping compression, port work, etc., etc. and you ALWAYS replied. Then I run my bike and report my findings and I'm the hero? Man, you are way too humble! This board provides a great access to learning from a bunch of people but you are tops in my book. If we ever get to meet, I'm buying dinner 'cause I sure owe you.( BTW, I have offered to feed Redelk the last two times we've gotten together but he is STUBBORN!!!)
Thanks again Jim, all of us shadetree/backyard mechanics really appreciate your time and trouble.
Dan
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ra12r
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posted July 24, 2002 08:10 AM
Let us all get past what is emotional support and what is facts! Doug's company is by far "NOT A NON-PROFIT" organization. Information that supports the products sold is not the same as the information that Y2K and others has provided from the begginning.
I personally have spent several thousand dollars with Muzzy's and have recieved limited information/product support responses from them. That is very different from information about the motor to really get it to perform. If all can remember, Doug wouldn't even share his maps with us, when members on the board would.......if you hadn't "bought" the kits from them. I had purchased a 1270 kit and didn't receive the map and called for it and Muzzy's would NOTTTTTTTT give me the map!!! I had to PROVE that i bought the kit from them......It was just a PC3 map for goodness sake. I begged them for information to be able to get 195 hp out of a 1270 kit.....didn't happen!!!!!!!! So i turned to Y2K, Bear and others,,,who by the way didn't sell me the kit!
So, Redelk, Fish, Swft etc...yes i am very unimpressed and disappointed in the "loyalty" that they Muzzy have for us, and the lack of support to help us make hp (which is different from selling parts)! I am not decieved, it is simply about the money in a very shallow vein. The process to make a map is no different for Muzzy's to develope a map as it is for KCADBY! He sent me his map and many many others also sent me their maps with no drama. Kevin just wanted to help US be faster!!! Frankly, let not forget that Kevin was giving us information and Muzzy's was just posting times! I personally saw that Robert proved that the zx12 was a sub-9.50 bike before Muzzy's did and then POSTED that it could be done "WITHOUT" their parts or any parts!!! To me Robert proved that Kawasaki had a great product off the showroom. Roberts personal experiences and disdaine, well i just ate the meat and spit out the bones. But at least he let us know that we can do it if we look!
Even now Doug has an opportunity to share information to make his "KITS" perform better and has chosen not to in regards to cam numbers. We all know that the limited info about the cams that Y2K has shared is just a fragment of what could be shared by Muzzy's. I personally don't see where there is a loss of money to share such info,,,,,,,it would sell more adjustable cam sprockets......hmmmmmmm!!!!!!! If you have enough R&D to design a complete computer control systems, turbo systems, piston and crank kits, clutch kits with oiling mods, clutch fibers combinations, swing arm extensions, electrical wiring mods for airshifters, need i say more..... I call a spade a spade!!! They came up with 105/100 but i guess i should assume that is the only R&D that they did for cam numbers....yeah okay!! All of the MODS that we have, none are from Muzzy's or Doug, except run your bike low on oil for more hp! (That was brilliant) Yet so many think they are really here for us....the 199mph record was not for us, it was for ego and marketing...why because its only purpose was to sell Muzzy pipes. I guarentee that KMI already knew what the bike could do!!! I have been disappointed and frustrated for some time, especially with the lack of insight of many on this board concerning some obvious truths. Doug if you want to help, then help. If not, then maintain what the current status quo is, just know that we are not all decieved.
Now, everyone can roast me for not giving the "hi ho hitler", but you same folks still need folks like Y2K and Kevin and Bear and Ted and Redelk(squeeky brakes issue) to really give the info to improve your bikes. I will still buy the parts that I need.....and then learn from the guys that are really supporting us!
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ZHooligan
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posted July 24, 2002 01:54 PM
In this day of intense litigation it is the big (deep pockets) target that gets sued. That is why every pipe manufacture that sales a pipe and gives you a map provides a safe map. I have no idea how large Muzzys company is but at the very least the perception of most is that it is pretty big and certainly has deep pockets. With that said, Muzzys and or Doug puts out a map or cam information that places you and or any other person at the ragged edge just prior to melt down and guess what their business is eliminated. Because of the hundreds if not thousands of assholes that would sue them because their bike melted. Remeber it is not relevant whether the person is right or even wins. The legal fees alone are mind blowing. I know this for a fact as I am personally involved in a suit at the moment that I will ultimately win, but my out of pocket legal fees have now exceeded $700,000.00.
You are asking that Muzzy for example share with you and the other zillion people that have access here information that may or may not work on a bike. We are talking about mass production motorcycles. Shit look at the spread on the horsepower for the same pipe on 50 different ZX12s. Of course the Dyno is always blamed for the differnces. When in reality the ports, the cams, the valves and pretty much almost every component is different on all 50 of those seemingly identical machines.
Different people and differnt companies have different exposure and frankly assets. Companies that are out of country versus US companies face different risks as well.At home mechanics regardless whether they are the best in the world have no real assets. Overseas companies are difficult to sue and even harder to collect from. The internet has multiplied risk exponentialy for many companies as now any moron that can get on the internet can pull off information and then sue you for letting him or her have it.
I am a bit flabergasted by the comment about "199 m.ph. was not for us, it was for ego and marketing." Why in the hell should it be for us? Did we put our homes and families on the line financialy to build their company? It is easy to lurk in the shadows half in and half out. But when you are a full blown business in this country your ass, neck, dick etc. are on the line.
I am not a Muzzy cheerleader. In fact some of my early posts were bitches at Muzzys for some poor service. But as a businessman I understand the issues and I have experienced the bullshit up close and personal.
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justoyz2
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posted July 24, 2002 03:10 PM
Y2K
What's a good setting for drag racing. I am set at 105/105, is there anything better?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted July 24, 2002 05:54 PM
This may help put things into perspective. Its somthing I sent to someone one time.
Whats the absolute best for peak power with stock cams at say 10,600?
Were only talking about 2-3 hp, I'd say 105/102 105/103 They come up almost identical. I havent tried either so I cant say for shure.
More overlap seems to help above peak power. Say 105/100. And 105/103 seems to be peakier
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redelk
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posted July 24, 2002 09:20 PM
ra12r, no flames from me. I prefer for folks to share their TRUE viewpoints and personal experiences, rather then hide behind a "lemming mentality".
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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