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narider

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posted January 18, 2008 06:29 AM

Edited By: narider on 18 Jan 2008 06:30

I'm not commenting on any of the other stuff as you Kawy guys seem to have more ego then Harley rider's have oil leaks(which you're slower then at Texas, Maxton and Bonneville by the way Ali :-) ). But when it comes to those timing lights, you can rest assure if they were Jack's and he set them up... you aren't going to get any better, at least not from any venue that any of us have ever raced at, or from any vehicle manufacturer you know of(and as a matter of fact, you might even find that any of those have been using his setup to time you or state times that you've read about). GPS is just that from my understanding(from those with GPS technology smarts that have never had any dogs in any kind speed fights), it tells where you're at more accurate then it tells how fast you've been(it's placement accuracy is higher then it's timing of arrival accuracy).
Todd
Sometimes we only know what we know... not what we think we know.
Just like the best mechanics aren't in the industry... the fastest bikes have never been timed!

Phantom13

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Posts: 736

posted January 18, 2008 09:52 AM

Edited By: Phantom13 on 18 Jan 2008 09:54

quote:
Was it ever stated that that bike had a "200mm" tire?

You did. You stated on many occassions that the bike was taken out of the crate "as is" with nothing changed. In case you forgot, the ZX-12R comes with a 200mm tire. So which is it? Did you change the tire or use the stock dunlop 200mm tire?

quote:
I just went into the garage and measured the tire on my 12 at 78.5" and my chart says it would go 202+ at 11,500 with a 4.215 overall. I'm just askin', because I don't remember.

LMFAO! Your "chart"? Does your chart factor in tire and clutch slippage? See, in the real world.... you lose some of that theoretical gearing due to a little thing called PHYSICS. Again, stock gearing, stock rev-limiter, stock circum. tire..... only worth 196mph +/- IN THE REAL WORLD. Come on Doug..... Come on.

quote:
Of all the things you guys are throwing out, this "physically impossible" stuff bothers me the most. You think if KMC (or I) had calculated that it was "impossible", we would have even attempted to do it? Or done it with the expectation that all the smart guys like you and the various press types would not have posed the question? Come on.

Again, we're not saying it's physically impossible.... it's MECHANICALLY impossible as well. Unless you've managed to miraculously eliminate all tire/clutch slippage on a bike... it's NOT POSSIBLE WITH A BONE STOCK ZX-12R. How many worldwide private tests confirming the bike slams into the rev limiter at 196mph does it take to convince you? Let me guess..... we all have early rev limiters? Come on Doug..... Come on.

Hell, I've got $1,000 that says YOU can't hit 199-200mph at Maxton on SHIPHTEEY's 215rwhp super-light modified 1199cc Nitrous ZX-12R with stock wheels, stock sprockets, stock ecu, stock 200mm Dunlop. Surely, with another 45rwhp and MUCH less weight than your "stock 199.1mph ZX-12R" ... it should be easy money. How strong are your convictions? Come on Doug..... Come on.

quote:
In 2001 the 1340 was approx 205 hp on the dynojet. Speeds at The Salt were 201/205, 203 + avg. Yours was prolly making about the same.

Incorrect, my 1287cc ZX-12R is lucky to push 195rwhp on a HAPPY Dj250 on a GOOD day. Still, it went faster with less distance, less power, and a heavier rider, than your "works" Muzzy Bonneville Special 1340 stroker has EVER GONE. So maybe..... you're not THAT good.

Oh, if there's any question about the displacement or horsepower of my 1287cc ZX-12R, I'll happily rip it apart at Maxton for you or anyone else. $500 labor + cost of reassembly materials.
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Phantom13

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posted January 18, 2008 10:14 AM

quote:
I'm not commenting on any of the other stuff as you Kawy guys seem to have more ego then Harley rider's have oil leaks(which you're slower then at Texas, Maxton and Bonneville by the way Ali :-) ). But when it comes to those timing lights, you can rest assure if they were Jack's and he set them up... you aren't going to get any better, at least not from any venue that any of us have ever raced at, or from any vehicle manufacturer you know of(and as a matter of fact, you might even find that any of those have been using his setup to time you or state times that you've read about). GPS is just that from my understanding(from those with GPS technology smarts that have never had any dogs in any kind speed fights), it tells where you're at more accurate then it tells how fast you've been(it's placement accuracy is higher then it's timing of arrival accuracy).
Todd
Sometimes we only know what we know... not what we think we know.
Just like the best mechanics aren't in the industry... the fastest bikes have never been timed!

Well, I will say this much about Maxton....

When I ran there, my GPS Max Speed reading was CONSISTANTLY within 0.2 - 0.3mph of the timing lights. Of course, I can only speak about my personal GPS vs Timing Lights testing. So as far as I'm concerned, GPS is an extremely accurate tool for measuring Max Speed, second only to properly set-up timing lights.

Todd, I'd just like to thank you and your wife again for all your help, advice, and hospitality. It was very kind and generous of you to offer me your personal leathers. If there's ever anything I can do to help you out in the future, please do not hesitate to ask.

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narider

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Posts: 246

posted January 18, 2008 11:05 AM

No problem at all... the more racers that are humble towards each other and get along and share with each other(be it parts, knowledge or gear), the sooner the speeds get faster overall. IMO, real speed junkies don't mind doing whatever it takes to help others like them go fast too(it's all about the speed of what they're running)... so just pass the thought and offer on to the next guy that might feel like he's not going to be able to do what he came to do("Paying it forward" I believe it's called?).
Todd
PS: I'd be interested in your findings if you strap 2 or 3 different GPS units on your bike and see what you come up with over consecutive runs with no changes(I believe it's not just the units that can sample different, but also in the position of and access to the satelites it hits on at any certain time)

Phantom13

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posted January 18, 2008 11:40 AM

Well said.

We've actually done the test you just described down here at the 9/10th's in Florida. Take into consideration, the track is in the middle of nowhere much like Maxton so satellite reception isn't too hard to obtain and sustain.

After multiple tests, the variance is only 0.1 - 0.3mph at the most.

Best place to mount the GPS is of course outwardly exposed with no obstructions. They do however work well inside tailsections and/or backpockets. I personally tape mine on the front of the gas tank but I've seen others tape them to ram air covers and even the rear seat.

The only issue with the GPS is the refresh rate. It's approx. refreshed every 1 second, so if you're accelerating extremely hard during the last second before you shutdown, it may read lower than actual speed. Fortunately, most bikes (other than turbo's and big nitrous) accelerate very slowly at the top of 6th gear at the end of the mile, so the GPS has adequate time to "catch-up"..... especially since you shut down AFTER the lights, not AT the lights. This extra second is all the GPS needs to maintain accuracy.

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Hells Dark Lord

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posted January 18, 2008 12:15 PM

my gps is velcroed to the triple tree, never had any issues with it there, even when slamming down hard after a wheelie, it never has moved....
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shiphteey

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posted January 18, 2008 01:40 PM

Edited By: shiphteey on 18 Jan 2008 13:46

Hells Dark Lord...unfortunately, at least with a Muzzy Damper there is no room for it w/out some sort of bracket. Even the small yellow Garmins didn't fit well w/the muzzy/hyperpro damper.

DM: I'll let you run my bike so long as you agree to run 18/46, dunlop 207 200 series OEM tire and a stock ecu (I have a spare one). Phantom will put up the stock wheels and tire if need be. If you are afraid of sabotage you can run your 1340, so long as it meets the ecu, gearing and tire requirements we ask. As for my bike, it dynoed 201 RWHP over and over on a DJ150, which is probably the same type of dyno you must have used to get 205 RWHP back in the day, right? Your 203 average is inline with my 202 average (GPS avg was higher) considering the headwind slowed me down but the tailwind had me on the rev limiter. Not too shabby for a Bonneville "ROOKIE"...running about the same as DM, the guy who says he IS THAT GOOD!!! Also, remember I sprayed in 6th....so I only had the same HP as you did in 6th, you had more drive through the 1st 5 gears, most of which is admittedly unusable on the salt.

A.
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entropy

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posted January 18, 2008 04:52 PM

Edited By: entropy on 19 Jan 2008 04:53

bahahahahahahaha

you guys keeeeell me.

Insinuating DM is lying...

You guys are like those scientists in the 1800's who proved a bumble bee can't fly by math & logic.

I do enjoy the drama, but here is some homework:

Play devil's advocate, and come up with a reasonable scenario how DM DID achieve 199.
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shiphteey

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posted January 19, 2008 06:51 AM

Edited By: shiphteey on 19 Jan 2008 06:57

Karl, it can only be one of a few things really.

1) DM truely doesn't know that his bike wasn't bone stock and/or doesn't know that other NON-CRATED directly to him & Muzzy motors can't do it. Hence why he thinks he is "that good". It is no secret that Manufacturers send ringer bikes for testing. The 12 was called project 320, ie 320 kph. They claimed in the silver book to have done that speed if I'm not mistaken, a "pre-production" bike is maybe what he was given.

2) DM DOES know it can NOT be done on all "normal" 12s but won't admit it for whatever reasons.

3) DM is forgetting key changes that were not disclosed in the mythical 199.1 mph muzzy piped pass such as sprocket/tire changes.

Karl, doesn't it strike you as odd that DM has eclipsed your personal best speed, even though you have a 1427 to his stock motor? You've logged enough to know it simply can't be done with that gearing, stock ecu on that POS tire. He's even claiming that with cooler temps he could have gone 200? Pleeeeease. Now he's talking 4+ mph faster than what can be achieved on planet earth. What next, he hits a true 202 mph? ZERO tire and clutch slip?

A.
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KZScott

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posted January 19, 2008 07:21 AM

isnt the rev limiter not exactly the same on every bike? maybe with the luck of the draw(or possibly hand picked by kawi), he got one that was on the high side of normal(still completely stock). Ali, you said that about 600 rpm gives you 6mph right? if the factory red line varies by a 100-200 rpm per bike normally. wouldnt this give a couple mph difference on the top speed of 2 otherwise identical bikes?
what about the difference in stock heads? i know first hand how the ports are all different as the casting process isnt perfect. some of my ports had more "junk" in them than others. i made them all the same, but i had to do more work to some than others. i can post a pic if you really want me to, or just check out my rebuild thread in the dragbike zone. what if the head on DM's bike was really good from the factory? as in wouldnt need much cleaning up. again luck of the draw or had selected by kawi(still bone stock though)
what about the difference in tires? they arent the exact same. im sure some tires "grow" more than others (even if they are the same brand/type)
now for clutch slip. there has to be a range of what spring pressure is from the factory. (there sure is for valve springs) he might have been lucky and got a bunch of springs that were on the high side of the tolerence range for normal stock springs. that would decrease clutch slip some.
i guess my point is nothing is made exactly the same in a factory mass produced product. (but the aftermarket guys come pretty close) so there is a range of what is considered acceptable to use. if a bunch of stuff that was completely stock/normal, but was on the "high side" of normal. it would add up to a bike that was a bit better than most of the factory bikes. a bone stock "ringer"
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shiphteey

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posted January 19, 2008 10:45 AM

isnt the rev limiter not exactly the same on every bike?

----Indeed, there are slight variances between boxes.

maybe with the luck of the draw(or possibly hand picked by kawi),

----Luck of the draw? Nah man, it was hand picked. Why would Kawasaki want to take a chance and have their bike go slower than they claimed?

he got one that was on the high side of normal(still completely stock).

----But it isn't JUST rpms in the real world. Being able to rev higher would open the door for the possibility, but less than 170 RWHP? 510+ lbs on the bike alone if it was truely stock with minimal fuel being "allowed" for weight savings? He was still lacking the punch up top to overcome the tremendous wind resistance.

Ali, you said that about 600 rpm gives you 6mph right?

----Nope. I said that in 4th gear it gave me 8 mph on GPS with the extended rev limiter vs my stock one with 17/46 gearing.

if the factory red line varies by a 100-200 rpm per bike normally. wouldnt this give a couple mph difference on the top speed of 2 otherwise identical bikes?

----Sure, in theory, but in reality he would still need some more HP, or to at least make sure he had strong pulling power up top (cams?)

what about the difference in stock heads? i know first hand how the ports are all different as the casting process isnt perfect. some of my ports had more "junk" in them than others. i made them all the same, but i had to do more work to some than others. i can post a pic if you really want me to, or just check out my rebuild thread in the dragbike zone. what if the head on DM's bike was really good from the factory?

----How convenient....a ringer bike.....just the "luck" of the draw? So DM had some ringer bike that had the lightest parts internally, the highest rev limiter....what else?

as in wouldnt need much cleaning up. again luck of the draw or had selected by kawi(still bone stock though)
what about the difference in tires? they arent the exact same. im sure some tires "grow" more than others (even if they are the same brand/type)

-----200 series 207s have been tested all over the world and on the rev limiter in the real world about 196 is what is seen all across the board.

now for clutch slip. there has to be a range of what spring pressure is from the factory. (there sure is for valve springs) he might have been lucky and got a bunch of springs that were on the high side of the tolerence range for normal stock springs. that would decrease clutch slip some.

----Just a "regular" type of ZX12 that any joe shmoe can go buy off the showroom? Nope, once again all signs point to a ringer bike. Claiming that a ZX12 with a muzzy pipe can go 199.1 is a bit misleading if it can't be replicated by anyone on the planet with more HP, less weight and better aeros isn't it?

i guess my point is nothing is made exactly the same in a factory mass produced product. (but the aftermarket guys come pretty close) so there is a range of what is considered acceptable to use. if a bunch of stuff that was completely stock/normal, but was on the "high side" of normal. it would add up to a bike that was a bit better than most of the factory bikes. a bone stock "ringer"

----Exactly. That is what I'm getting at. It is something that NO OTHER ZX12 bone stock, none on the planet, or at least one that was PUBLICALLY available can pull. That is very misleading to not only 12 guys but to the general public. Sure, other manufacturers may do it, it may have been done time and again, but the point I'm making is THAT 199 mph pass was not done on a normal bike. For DM to claim that him squeaking a 199 mph out of the bike can be chalked up to him being "that good" is condescending to others who go out there and do it. We know what it takes and a truely stock 2000 with a pipe alone won't cut it. Deep down I would not be surprised if he already KNOWS that he couldn't get the job done on a regular showroom bone stock 12. If he was more honest or more humble about his claim then, yeah, sure. Never once does DM even consider that his 12 may have had a bit more in it than what a regular zx12 motor has. EIther he is INTENTIONALLY deceiving or, again, is truely that arrogant that he thinks HE is the ONLY ONE that could ever tap into the secret 3 mph that the 12 had.
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Phantom13

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posted January 20, 2008 12:04 PM

I can't help but notice how a certain someone has become extremely quiet all of a sudden......

DM, just for the record.... I think you're an OK guy. I just get a little irritated when people mislead/decieve others about speeds and/or mods on their bikes. See, when people do this, it makes the LEGIT accomplishments of others seem that much less impressive.

This discussion is not personal, it's simply to clear the air of the fishy smell lingering around your 199.1mph "Crate-Stock" ZX-12R run.

Karl, Believe me, I've gone over all the scenario's. We've been running ZX-12R's at the 9/10th's since 2000. Not just one.... but MANY. We're talking about HUNDREDS of passes with all types of set-ups over the last 7 years. We know what it takes to get a ZX-12R to go 199-200mph....

As for DM being "THAT GOOD", well.... all I can say is that there are MUCH more talented and accomplished riders out there than Doug, and all of them slam into the rev limiter at 196mph on Stock geared/tire/revlimiter ZX-12R's, regardless of power or distance.

If it was a "Ringer" bike... then that's fine, all I ask is that he doesn't try and pass it off as a stock 12R with nothing more than a shitty Muzzy pipe making 170rwhp.

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dougmeyer

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posted January 22, 2008 04:23 PM

Y2KZX12R

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posted January 22, 2008 05:40 PM

My ECU is stock and the rev limiter comes in at exactly 11,625 rpm.

You wont see any HP difference on a dyno from ceramic wheel bearings. Been there tried that.
And the difference in force needed to maintain the wheels spinning at 200 mph with stock bearings vs ceramic bearings is almost imeasureable.
Yet the power needed to go just .5 mph faster is large in comparison.
So I just dont buy the "ceramic wheel bearings give you any more speed" thing.

But its been proven that under high load applications, like the tranny output shaft bearing, that ceramic bearings will take more abuse and last longer. The reasoning is, so I've been told, is that the balls dont go out of round from the high loading like steel balls.
But the wheel bearings never see that kind of loading. But, the outer rear sprocket bearing is another good canidate for a ceramic.
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shiphteey

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posted January 23, 2008 05:15 AM

OK,
I've been doing some long hours of actual work for the last few days and haven't checked on. Nice to see that the discussion is continuing.
Here are a few statements of events as I remember them.
Three bikes arrived at the Muzzy shops. They were shipped from the warehouse, not KMC. I was there when they were uncrated, and I know Japanese packaging well. They had never been uncrated before. We got three because we wanted to pick the best one of a few. That became the primary bike. It was up a few hp.

----Unlike the original article which plainly stated they both made essentially the same HP.

(sorry I don't remember the numbers). Rev limiters vary as much as 250 RPM. We picked the best one of course.

----Out of the 3 bikes? I HIGHLY DOUBT all three rev limiters varied by that much given your small sample. Sure its "possible" but highly improbable that they were off that much. Not buying it, neither are others Doug.

I don't think I ran the stock, new tire. I don't believe that this is or ever was a "violation" of any representation of "stock". Everyone reserves the right to change tires when attempting maximum performance of any kind.

----Oh come now Doug, spare me. You don't find it the least bit deceiving the only modification listed were removing mirrors and a muzzy pipe? Changing rolling diameter changes the gearing. You are allowed to do WHATEVER YOU WANT with respect to safety but leaving out a KEY CHANGE is deceiving to others.

I had had some bad experinces with Dunlops chunking at Bonneville and did not want to run them but Rob had a Dunlop deal and insisted. I think we had some Dunlop Super sport tires, and I brought my favorite Metzeler mounted up on a spare wheel in case the Dunlops chunked. I probably ran the Dunlop on the 192 mph run with the muffler and could very well have changed to the Metzeler when we threw the pipe on. I knew it had better traction and was safer, we were running out of time and I wanted to go for broke. I made at least one run with the windshield off, and at least one with the seat removed, but since neither was an improvement we reinstalled those parts. On the last run, which was the 199+ mph one, I backed around the corner as far as I could, and I think Jack moved entry clock to the other side of the the end clock, creating a new trap 66 feet further down. Going in we had 1.1 miles, after that, 66 feet more.

----So the timing lights were changed. Gotcha.

We ran Pump 92 from Shell, because that consistently made the best power on the dyno
Remember we weren't trying to go a given speed in a given distance, we were just trying to get the biggest number.

----I disagree. There was much hype around the ZX-12 breaking 200. You, Muzzy & Kawasaki ALL wanted it to go 200+, admit it.

In fact, thenember we wanted to get was the one with muffler in place. That was the "stock bike" number, and what we were trying to eclipse was the 194 taht CW reported with the Busa. With the 192, we actually failed at that.

----Different day, different place, different conditions.

Putting the pipe on and trying to see what difference that made was just something that we wanted to try. It was a last minute deal before we had to quit.

If you're not on the limiter tire slip, is irrelevant. A properly seasoned race tire slips VERY little on pavement. A healthy clutch, with less than maybe 350 hp has zero slip. (This is borne out by countless hours of race bike electronic data)

Keep in mind that the ENTIRE reason that KMC commissioned this effort we to refute what they believed to be "ringer" numbers from the Hayabusa tested by CW. It was an effort to carefully control a test, with procedures that would hold up to scrutiny during and after the fact. To cheat to catch a cheater would be counterproductive, I'd say.

----But to be labled a cheater, one has to get caught, right?

Like all those who practice revisionist history, a few of you are viewing these events with today's eyes. Remember, the 99 Busa and 2000 12 were the fastest NA bikes ever offered for sale and very few people had any experience riding at those speeds on a big street motorcycle. We had serious concerns about running stock tires sustained at 190+. We thought we could do 195+ I'd have bet on it. We were trying to do something that had never been done, to run 200 mph on a stock engined motorcycle. Pretty much anybody can do it now. That's been the evolution of the sport. It doesn't seem like it should have been such a big deal then, but it was. We took it very seriously.

Regarding the ceramic bearings, what I've said is that, 1. I don't believe the claims of the increases in speed I see reported., 2. I don't believe that it is a cost effective mod for the average rider. 3. No one can prove to me with actual data that I am incorrect. 4. I have seen data that shows much smaller gains than are reported. 5. I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone, I trying to save someone from spending money expecting gains thay will not see.

I gotta go.....

----So in conclusion Doug, this magical ZX12 initially was claimed to have ONLY a Muzzy Pipe and no mirrors. In reality you changed tires (which essentially changed gearing), lowered it front and rear, and had JD move the timing lights. Also, you admit to sorting out which ECU had the highest RPMs at the rev limiter (claiming they vary by as much as 250). Still sounds fishy, even factoring in the massive tailwinds you had that day. The reality of the situation Doug is that you are now telling us the 12 was modified more than what was initially claimed. YOU didn't write the article, but I'm sure you read it and could have clarified LONG AGO about the exact changes. Even factoring all those things I still don't buy it. It doesn't add up. Its close....sure....its a nice STORY but it still doesn't add up to 199.1 mph. If you said cams, compression, some race gas....meh, I could see it. But not with less than 170 RWHP in a hair over 1 mile with a bike over 500 lbs. You aren't exactly superjockey weight like Ryan Schnitz is either. But hey, at least you've shed a little more light on the subject. Readers and 12 owners now KNOW that there is no way their stock bike save for no mirrors and a Muzzy pipe will ever go 199 as it sits.
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entropy

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posted January 23, 2008 05:54 AM

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ali, you kill me

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dougmeyer

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posted January 23, 2008 06:03 AM

This really bothers you doesn't it?
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....

shiphteey

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posted January 23, 2008 06:46 AM

No Doug, I'm fine. Now we've seen the bike you ran obviously had more done to it that implied with its claimed set-up in the article. Moves it to "possible" status, and I'll leave it at that.

A.
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narider

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posted January 23, 2008 07:36 AM

Edited By: narider on 23 Jan 2008 07:37

Karl, If Ali put as much effort and care into his bike as he did this thread of what a bike ran when he was barely out of high school... he'd be in the 2-teens at least by now I'll bet!
Heck, he might even be able to beat some old harley guy on his first gen GSXR at the strip? :-)
JK Ali... I know you were more college age when that 12 came out ;-)

Just curious Doug(btw, I don't know you but have heard plenty good about you in multiple circles, ok maybe not from Ali or Phantoms circle - lol). Seriously though, what I'm wondering is if it was you, Muzzy or Kawi that got JD to bring himself and his equipment out from Cali for that testing? I'd give about anything to spend a weekend with his knowledge and equipment(not matter what bike was involved) on the concrete(or any track) together with him.
Todd

shane661

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posted January 23, 2008 09:20 AM

There is such a thing as beating a dead horse. And then there is killing the horse, beating it, sodomizing it, and setting it on fire.

Shane

rac4it

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Bergie
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posted January 23, 2008 11:27 AM

Just when I thought there might be something interesting to come back to this forum for and I see nothing has changed.

Maybe I'll check back in 2009

shiphteey

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posted January 23, 2008 11:38 AM

quote:
Just when I thought there might be something interesting to come back to this forum for and I see nothing has changed.

Maybe I'll check back in 2009

Yeah you do that buddy. No worries, we won't be holding our breath.
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Gemini Motorcycles

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dougmeyer

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posted January 23, 2008 12:57 PM

Hey Bergie! Nice to hear from you. Hope you're well. Don't be a stranger.

narider- I arranged it with Jack, and Kawasaki paid his expenses.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....

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