twista
Zone Head
" Get up, and Stay up ! "
Posts: 797
|
posted January 07, 2008 07:46 PM
2 Questions??
Wheel bearings,, will any do the job or are there a better brand,, ive seen some on ebay and was wondering if they are junk or will do the job?
running a 17/45 gearing,, will that allow for the use of a stock 116 link length,, only reason i ask is that my adjusters are almost all the way out,, (didnt actually let them all the way)..?
____________
" When in Doubt, There is no Doubt !"
  
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted January 07, 2008 08:18 PM
ceramic bearings are better, but only if you get the "good" ones(WWB). the guys at ACE say they give you 2mph on top end. im sure Phantom, Sal or Ali will tell you how great they are  i have no expirience with other types of bearings, so i would stick with oem unless i went all out and got the good ceramic ones. just my .02
is your chain stretched any? i didnt play around with sprockets on a stock arm, went right for the bolt ons 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
twista
Zone Head
" Get up, and Stay up ! "
Posts: 797
|
posted January 07, 2008 09:23 PM
yea i hear the good ones are expensive,, the ones on ebay are like $30-35 shipped,, and that is a brand spanking 0 mile EK DVX2 that i had to use a file on my frame to get on.
not much maybe a 1/16th of an inch.. and yea i sort of like the black,, i tried to get a different look versus my brothers bike (identical A1) so i went to black wheels and a couple of other things,, i like the look,, and i really like the way it looks with the new arm,, the other silver one was thrashed! Later,, i will let you know tomorrow whats up with the 16..
____________
" When in Doubt, There is no Doubt !"
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 08, 2008 07:54 AM
17/45 fits just fine on the stock chain, run it before. If it doesn't fit on yours either you don't have right amount of links or your chain is stretched too much.
I had stock bearings in stock wheels and ceramics in the carbon ones. Obviously the carbon wheels with ceramics performed better but thats changing more than 1 variable! I believe Sal did some back to back testing at the 9/10ths between stock bearings and ceramic...if I'm not mistaken he did see an improvement over stock....if he doesn't give you an exact number do not be offended as he likes a competitive edge. If your bearings are going or you are running aftermarket wheels I say throw em in!
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 10, 2008 02:57 PM
I still don't believe it.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
|
posted January 10, 2008 03:13 PM
quote:
I still don't believe it.
I remember your previous comments on this subject, and was waiting for you to chime in on this
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 10, 2008 04:45 PM
quote:
I still don't believe it.
You don't have to, just like virtually no one on here believes you went 199.1 mph with
Stock gearing
Stock rev limiter
Stock tire
Stock motor
and just a Muzzy pipe with no mirrors.
But I can say that my 12 rolls much easier than other bikes its weight and even lighter in the shop. Every little bit helps.
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 11, 2008 11:57 AM
You forgot the stock wheel bearings......
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted January 11, 2008 02:21 PM
 Edited By: Phantom13 on 11 Jan 2008 14:22
Twista- The ceramic wheel bearings are a great mod for a couple reasons.
1. Ceramic bearings resist heat far better than the stock steel bearings. This means, you'll probably sell the bike long before the bearings need to be replaced.
2. Ceramic bearings create less friction, resulting in both easier rolling of the bike and more importantly it requires less power from the engine to spin the wheels.
See, there's a loss in power transfer from the engine to the wheel. Things such as the chain, wheels, and wheel bearings require power to be turned, resulting in a parasidic loss in power.
Anything you can do to decrease the power required to spin the wheel will result in more power being transfered to the road. Hence the performance gain via ceramic wheel bearings.
If you're looking to buy a set of WWB Ceramic Wheel Bearings, I believe Ace Performance has one of (if not the best) prices on the market.
You can order them here.
www.AcePerformanceRacing.com
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 11, 2008 03:32 PM
Edited By: shiphteey on 11 Jan 2008 15:34
quote:
You forgot the stock wheel bearings......
It wouldn't have been an issue of stock vs ceramic. Even with a piston kit going over 196 mph could not happen with the stock tire, ecu/rev limiter and gearing. Somehow Doug Meyer is SO GOOD he went a FULL 3 mph faster than ANY other stock geared, stock rev limited, stock tired ZX12 on the planet...even when other 12s have had riders smaller than him, more experienced than him and/or more HP than a "stock 12" etc. Jason McVicar has a stock geared 12 wrung out at 196 on the rev limiter at the traps....the 9/10th guys have seen 196 all day long and nothing more and they have done TONS of testing...even in tailwind conditions.
Bone stock except for a muzzy pipe and removal of mirrors and went 199.1? Ok Doug. You can choose not to believe that reducing friction doesn't equate to higher mph given a set distance or quicker acceleration. Just like you didn't believe in the accuracy of GPS...remember that?
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
|
posted January 11, 2008 04:12 PM
I was a bit skeptical untill I tried them now they are in all our race bikes !
They do work.
____________
ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
|
tshultz
Zone Head
Posts: 556
|
posted January 11, 2008 08:59 PM
How much do ceramic bearings cost?
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 14, 2008 11:27 AM
More experienced? By 2001, it was pretty widely agreed that I had logged more miles over 190 mph on two wheels than anyone, anywhere. GP bikes had not gone that fast yet, bikes that were faster couldn't do as many "laps". I was running over 180 25 years ago, and could and would do 20, 5 mile runs in the mid 190s in a week at the salt every year. By 2001 I had logged over 125 miles running over 195, and had about 40 miles over 198. I made my first long course pass on the salt in 1978.
Look, as a reminder, those runs were clocked and certified by an FIM referee (Jack Dolan, on HIS clocks), and the engines were sealed and the bikes were given to Cycle World. We fully expected them pull 'em apart and look. Not our fault they didn't.
Remember, I'm not sellin' anything to anyone. No axe to grind.
Oh, and by the way, I AM that good.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 14, 2008 03:25 PM
More experienced? By 2001, it was pretty widely agreed that I had logged more miles over 190 mph on two wheels than anyone, anywhere. GP bikes had not gone that fast yet, bikes that were faster couldn't do as many "laps". I was running over 180 25 years ago, and could and would do 20, 5 mile runs in the mid 190s in a week at the salt every year. By 2001 I had logged over 125 miles running over 195, and had about 40 miles over 198. I made my first long course pass on the salt in 1978.
----News Flash: Just because you have had more passes than many riders/racers does not make you the faster guy. GIve Vincent Hill & I identical bone stock ZX12s, give him years on it unmodified. Let me jump on it and a couple of passes will have me eclipsing his best, barring massive tailwind conditions. Thats just physics. Your laundry list is just that, a long list.
Look, as a reminder, those runs were clocked and certified by an FIM referee (Jack Dolan, on HIS clocks),
----Good point. His lights could have very well been off. No one is perfect.
and the engines were sealed and the bikes were given to Cycle World. We fully expected them pull 'em apart and look.
----Why? Wouldn' that raise even more suspicion if the motor was opened ANY TIME from when Kawasaki assembled them till when it made a pass?
Not our fault they didn't.
Remember, I'm not sellin' anything to anyone. No axe to grind.
Oh, and by the way, I AM that good.
----GTFOH Doug. I respect you as a rider, as a person, as a racer. But get off your high horse. The reality is that it has never been duplicated in the history of the ZX12 any time anywhere. Like you, there are many riders that would leave us choking on dust whether it be in the 1/4 mile, standing mile, or flat out on the Salts. At those speeds you don't just pile on 2-3 mph "just like that" when everyone else in the world is
SMACKING INTO THE REV LIMITER
The fact that you really BELIEVE that the 199.1 mph was actual (meaning the lights were perfect AND your bike ONLY had a pipe and no mirrors) only shows everyone how arrogant you can be. Just be honest with yourself and with others, deep down I'm sure you know the truth and even though it was years ago, it doesn't mean people forget.
There are lots of little things that "could" have been done to that 12 to make it ACTUALLY run a TRUE 199.1 mph, I don't doubt that. But, to try and pass it off as something that can be duplicated by a TRUELY stock zx12 with those minimal mods....I'm calling BS, as are many other people who would rather remain silent. Doesn't it strike you as odd that no other 12 has done it, honestly? You can't be that full of yourself....stickier tires since then, more HP than a piped 12...and yet know one has done it? Like I said, I can think of a couple of ways for it to have happened, but that isn't a "regular" zx12, one that ANY person in Y2K could have bought off the showroom.
You can fool some people some time....but you can't fool all the people all the time.
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 14, 2008 04:34 PM
It is what it is.
No, it doesn't strike me odd, because I experienced it all first hand. I have no doubts. I saw the three bikes the whole time from when they came out of the crates until we completed the runs, I rode two of them (and I still own the third) I know the heads were not removed. (They were sealed to allow for proof that we did not remove any suspected alterations AFTER the runs) I tried all the different things we tried. In fact, I'm firmly convinced I'd have run over 200 if I had been able to run early in the morning instead of at noon.
Just as a reminder and to be clear, this was more than a mile (about 1.1) and at that I had a running start coming off the taxiway in a pretty hard turn in first.
Do you really think that KMC would tolerate cheating on an effort that was open to scrutiny
by national magazines that would like nothing more than to EXPOSE such a thing? Get serious. They would never risk such a thing. That is why all the efforts were taken (certified clocks, FIM ref., sealing, witnesses, availablity to the Mags, etc)
I've been through this before. I've had people at Bonneville come up to me and say, literally "How the hell did you do that? I can't do that...." Ask Scott Guthrie next time you see him. I think he'll concur. He did it for years......
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 15, 2008 08:25 AM
Edited By: shiphteey on 15 Jan 2008 08:33
LOL, you think a Muzzy pipe and no mirrors will get an otherwise bone stock zx12 to a true 200? Pretty funny stuff. How about trying it at Bonneville, or TX Mile...or Maxton Mile with the ECTA...the 9/10ths....the UK flyers....wherever?
Doug, I'll even go out on a limb here, just for you. I'll let you make a pass on my 12 with a stock ECU, stock sprockets and the dunlop 207. Not only does it have a Muzzy Ti pipe, but it will also have:
BMC Race filters
Muzzy Clutch kit
Lowered front and rear
No front signals
Carbon fiber front and rear wheels with those "fake" ceramic bearings
Lighter rear rotor
Single front rotor
shorter bars & levers
shorter footpegs
carbon fiber tail, fiberglass seat (saved 7 lbs)
Fiberglass upper (saved 7 lbs)
40 shot dry
Air shifter (footshift if you like)
Significanly lighter and faster than whatever you piloted down the non-ECTA Maxton pass.
Spray it to your heart's content down the Maxton Mile. If you go 199 on it I will never make another post on bikeland or 12.org. If it doesn't go 199, you retire from bikeland. We'll even mount TWO GPS units to your bike (you know, those things that make for good bar stool convo) Hows that sound? I'm sure 215 RWHP, with significantly less weight and cleaner aeros (no front signals) would get you to a higher speed, right? We'll even mount 2 GPS units to your bike. You can hang out all weekend and wait for the tailwind if you like. I just ask that when you get to the rev limiter in 6th to get off the button.
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 15, 2008 10:47 AM
I might just take you up on that. It sounds like fun. Maybe I can make it to Texas. I was thinking about it last night, bringing my 12 out. It's tough for me to get away these days, working in another industry, but I would like to run some more.
How much power do you figure you had when you went 203 avg at The Salt? What was your best out the back? I assume you were spraying?
D.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
capt10ed
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted January 15, 2008 04:47 PM
HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!!!
Sounds like DM is going to have some FUN!!!!!!!
____________
2014 Loring AFB 14 runs over 200mph
with a best of 208.1 in 1.5 miles
and 204.5 in the mile.
|
twista
Zone Head
" Get up, and Stay up ! "
Posts: 797
|
posted January 15, 2008 06:13 PM
Geez im almost sad that i started this post!,, but it is making for interesting reading while im waiting for a electric expert to help in my HID post for help! LOL dont let me interupt continue...
____________
" When in Doubt, There is no Doubt !"
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 15, 2008 07:22 PM
Edited By: shiphteey on 15 Jan 2008 19:28
I might just take you up on that. It sounds like fun.
----I concur.
Maybe I can make it to Texas. I was thinking about it last night, bringing my 12 out. It's tough for me to get away these days, working in another industry, but I would like to run some more.
----You'll head up when you head up. No one who did all those high end runs for so long can just turn their back on it. You did it for that long because you liked it. I say its still in you.
How much power do you figure you had when you went 203 avg at The Salt?
---- Who knows, it dynoed 215RWHP on sea level, 172-175 off spray. No mapping changes running my sea level map up there. If it was safe at sea level chances are it would be even safer somewhere with less oxygen. For sure it was down on power, probably about what others estimate the HP deficit that is inherent when jumping up 4,000 feet in elevation.
What was your best out the back?
----199 GPS, 197 trap into the 9-10mph headwind. 208 on GPS, 206 tap with the tailwind, had to keep getting off the button since I was playing around 100ish RPMS before the limiter.
I assume you were spraying?
-----As would most. 6th gear. Something to note. If you look at the difference in speed your 1340cc stroker went in Bonneville vs a "stock" 12R at a private Maxton pass...doesn't it strike you as odd that the difference is so low given the difference in HP? Think about it for a second Doug. Look at my speeds that I have run at both. Minimal changes over the years, including HP staying stagnant. Yet the speeds were close, spraying the same amount. Common sense tells us given their similar speeds achieved with similar set-up, same bike, etc that either your 1340cc motor with all those mods was severely underperforming or your "Stock" 12 wasn't so stock.
If we accept the premise that your 1340 ws significantly faster than your stock 12, then that then begs the question: Who's timing lights are you claiming or are more inclined to believing are off? Did you have headwinds blowing both ways whenever you made a pass? Was it a category 4 hurricane that pushed you through the 199.0 mph barrier?
I am trying to make B-ville once, TX twice, and Maxton 3 times. In reality it may just be 1 TX and 2 Maxtons given my schedule. In any case, see you when I see you.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted January 16, 2008 10:12 AM
Edited By: Phantom13 on 16 Jan 2008 10:32
Wow, looks like this has turned into quite the thread.
All this being said, Doug..... I think you've got a little explaining to do in regards to the 199.1mph run on the "stock 12" with nothing more than a Muzzy pipe.
Unfortunately in the REAL WORLD, a stock ZX-12R with stock gearing (18/46), stock rev limiter (11,550-11,650) and stock 200mm Dunlop rear tire is only good for 196mph +/- . This is not up for debate, this is a PROVEN fact that has been duplicated all over the world. Sadly, your 199+mph with the same variables has never been duplicated by anyone anywhere. In short, it didn't matter if you had 1.1mi or 11mi and a hurricane behind you.... it's not mechanically possible unless you've managed to somehow defy the laws of physics and eliminate all wheelspin on a track known for poor traction like Maxton.
So this brings us all to ask the important question...
Was that ZX-12R altered in some way by Muzzy or KMC to increase allowable speeds or were the "certified" clocks extremely optimistic during this independant privately funded test?
Either way, your 199+mph run on a stock 12r w/ pipe is a false claim and for you to suggest 200mph was possible... well, it just takes away from the years of credibility you've gained.
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
|
posted January 16, 2008 10:27 AM
As for you dusting off your 1340cc "bonneville special" ZX-12R..... I really hope you bring it to Maxton sometime this year!
See, as of right now.... my 1287cc "9/10th's special" ZX-12R is the Fastest Naturally Aspirated Kawasaki to ever run in the 1350cc class at Maxton.
205.6mph with Sal "THEICEMAN" Spatafora of ACE PERFORMANCE in the saddle.
Being that your 1340cc stroker falls within this same class, I personally welcome you to try and up the ante this year.
Since you've got 30 years of race knowledge and experience, a 53cc displacement advantage, and quote:
Oh, and by the way, I AM that good.
. You should have no problem outrunning us, right?
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted January 16, 2008 04:13 PM
you guys are going to get him all pissed and make him whip out the turbo and do 250 lol.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted January 16, 2008 09:19 PM
Was it ever stated that that bike had a "200mm" tire?
I just went into the garage and measured the tire on my 12 at 78.5" and my chart says it would go 202+ at 11,500 with a 4.215 overall. I'm just askin', because I don't remember.
Of all the things you guys are throwing out, this "physically impossible" stuff bothers me the most. You think if KMC (or I) had calculated that it was "impossible", we would have even attempted to do it? Or done it with the expectation that all the smart guys like you and the various press types would not have posed the question? Come on.
In 2001 the 1340 was approx 205 hp on the dynojet. Speeds at The Salt were 201/205, 203 + avg. Yours was prolly making about the same.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted January 17, 2008 06:20 PM
Doug, when it was publicly stated that the only changes made to the ZX12R was the removal of mirrors and the installation of the full muzzy pipe is it not safe to say that the STOCK DUNSLOP 200 series tire would be ON the bike?!??! Otherwise they would have said "with brand xx tire in xxx size and xxx gearing"....? Is it not valid for us to presume that the ONLY mods were the pipe and no mirrors?
Doug, you said you measured "the tire" on your 12...what tire is that? And, lets presume it is a Dunlop 207 (200 series). Do you really think that what a GEARING CHART shows (202 mph) is what can be achieved in the REAL WORLD when you are rocking a crappy Dunlop 207 200 series brick tire on Maxton's dusty and bumpy track? Oooookay. Who knows what KMC gave you, but if we presume you ran a truely bone stock, meaning the rev limiter is pretty much the same, not some hand picked one that is xxx rpms higher than the norm, or had one with different cams, or higher hp....then I would say it is
"POSSIBLE"
to run that number. But after this many years with more grip, more distance, and more HP....if it hasn't been replicated it doesn't mean you're THAT GOOD, it means that in all likelihood your 12 wasn't what Joe Shmoe would have been able to get their hands on. Remember that the ZX12 was code named "Project 320", as in 320 kph or 198 mph. Not hard to see it going 1 mph over w/some other little tricks...but that bike wasn't released to the public AS IT STOOD.
Truth be told no one outside of the Muzzy/KMC circle would really know the exact state of that bike. What we can go with is the rest of the WORLD and what has been ran on the 12. I'm not saying you are intentionally trying to decieve. It is my belief (which means nothing, just like you thinking ceramic wheel bearings don't help in the slightest) that you simply ran the 12 as best you could, let the chips fall where they may.
Doug, this was years ago...any chance you remember the highest your tach showed? Was probably on your 199.1 mph run but I can't say that for sure. Did you see higher than 12.2 indicated on your tach EVER?
A.
____________
Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC