capt10ed
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted December 18, 2007 07:10 PM
Oil pressure
Is there any reason to increase the oil pressure in the 12.
I understand there would be some power loss but that should be negligible .
But
this could be offset by an increase in reliability?
Any thoughts on this...
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2014 Loring AFB 14 runs over 200mph
with a best of 208.1 in 1.5 miles
and 204.5 in the mile.
  
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KZScott
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posted December 18, 2007 09:49 PM
talk to Karl (entropy) he has a couple dos and donts
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 19, 2007 12:36 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 19 Dec 2007 00:37
as KZ notes there have been a lot of discussion on oil pressure.
The oil threads quickly take on religious overtones (lotsa strong beliefs, little hard fact), but for me there are 3 basic takeaways:
1. fact: idle oil pressure is scary low, like 6psi or so.
cure? set idle at 1500
2. fact: 40 or 50 wt full synthetic will give higher oil pressure across the board, cold & hot.
3. religion: shim the relief valve? yep, i did it cause i want 90-100psi at 10-12000.
Does that higher pressure really help?
No idea, my bearings always look like shit no matter what i do. 
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twista
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posted December 19, 2007 06:55 AM
was watching a video of this 12r,,a busa,, and a blackbird,, these guys were doing wheel stands for like 40 seconds,, what happens to the oil in that scenario,, where is the pickup located,, how bad on the engine is this..
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 19, 2007 07:19 AM
Yeah, but you have to remember that Entropy has a crazy soon to be 240+ HP all N/A motor. Thats probably why those bearings are taking a pounding. Most people say don't bother the factory set up is just fine...................................but this idiot would like as much oil and pressure as is reasonable for bearing life. Plus I like the extra two squirts under the piston. I think it's my imagination that they might cool the piston a little for nos or a tiny tiny bit of detonation prevention.................................but it lets me sleep better at night.
I use to like the lopey sound of the idle set low, but I keep it higher now. I would not mind
a high volume oil pump gear similar to the Busa (Robinson looking into that), and a little extra fatty pan with a partial swivel for regular pipe guys (MM looking into that).
I use the cheap Syn SportBike Mobile 1 for my oil, but everyone has there favorite. For some odd reason I can only find a hand full of independent studys that test the different oils and their additives.
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Texas12R
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posted December 19, 2007 07:38 AM
Edited By: Texas12R on 19 Dec 2007 07:50
I think the dynamic factor in the lower rpm range is, low pressure- high volume
That was the information I got from a KZ builder back in the early 80's
He said the oil circulated from the bottom to the top and returned at an astonishing rate.
could that be the current engineering design? You would probably need to have Dougs
cell phone # to get that information.
Fact: I run idle @ 1500 because Karl likes it 
Just for grins: I helped a guy for a while that like that low pressure high volume
philosophy, although it is apples to oranges, his small block chevy idled @1000 rpms
15 psi oil pressure- through the traps @ 7500 at 5-7 psi. It never spun, stacked bearings
that I ever saw .....but it always made my ass pucker while waiting for the win light
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dougmeyer
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posted December 19, 2007 08:46 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 19 Dec 2007 08:48
There is no oil pressure issue with the 12 other than starvation under high acceleration (sticky tire- wheely bar-long arm) . If you spin the tire you can't really generate enought aft G to unport the pickup. Prolonged wheelies are definitely a bad thing and will ultimately lead to scuffed (and failed) bearings. HP is not an issue at all as shown by the anecdotal evidence of the Muzzy Turbo ZRX, Steve Rice's Funny Bike (ZX-11 style engines) and ZX-12 powered Shootout and Pro Mod bikes. These bikes needed a dry sump to guarantee a continuous supply of oil under acceleration. (All failed bearings until the dry sump was utilized). Once that was done they all ran at least 425 HP routinely and Steve ran 500 hp on stock cranks and bearings and "normal" oil pressures.
The issue of high flow -low pressure on Kawasakis (and others of the era) is one that has morphed into an "old wives tale" based on a crucial fact that it often left out. The "old" KZ's were roller bearing engines. Roller and ball bearings don't need ANY oil pressure, only the presence of oil. This is why two strokes have roller main and rod bearings. Plain bearing engines rely on the oil pressure to support the moving parts and keep them away from each other (as you all know).
In fact, there were more than a few racing engines in the 70's that were plain bearing designs in their production versions, but were converted to roller bearing cranks and cams in the race versions (Porsche, Ferrari). There was actually a roller bearing conversion kit for small block Chevy's- cams for sure and I seem to recall mains as well. This was a fad and soon fell out of favor. Maybe this is what your friend had, because as someone who has destroyed A LOT of Chevy bearings I can tell you, there is NO WAY that a plain bearing SBC will live at 7000 rpm without at least 40 psi of oil pressure. Endurance and road race BB and SB Chevys engines were usually set for 80 psi and no problems ensued as long as there was oil in there.
Doug
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ninja12
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posted December 19, 2007 11:32 AM
After reading Brocks recommedation on light weight oil , and Doug Meyers explanation on oil pressure , the light finally came on. There is no reason to use heavy oil in a drag race engine. Maybe great for LSR or extremely hot conditions like turbos.
Their insight explain a engine loss. New engine survived 500 fairly aggressive street miles on 10w/40. Pulling the pan and verified everything was great.
Filled with 20w/50 less than 10 passes later we have gold. I believe the heavy oils my have helped in this destruction.
Myself, Entropy and Madmike have reported using heavy oil and all have our share of bearing problem.
If the zx12 has low oil pressure at idle and you add heavy oil. What happens at startup?
For the guys that had to loosen the oil filter after a oil change to get the light to go out,
What oil are you using?
Think of a extra thick shake with a straw, high pressure low volume.
Anyone see the light with me?
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twista
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posted December 19, 2007 12:50 PM
so you three now DONT use the heavy Oil,, what do you use,, in NYC the summers get pretty hot and humid,, and the highway traffic at times can be like a parking lot ,, (ie. the Long Island Expressway) so even in that scenario a lighter oil is the way to go?
i did some reading and the Motul looked good as did the Amsoil but at what weight?
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dougmeyer
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posted December 19, 2007 03:43 PM
Use a multi-vis synthetic. "Heavy oil" like a straight 40 or 50 is counter productive and unnecessary. I recommend a 5/40 or 5/30 and personally us Motul 300V.
I am not one to go to the ultra light extreme either, especially in an engine with "excess" HP.
If said before, if I'm in a position where I am looking for the last .001 sec or mph, I will do that after all other avenues are exhausted. It's just not worth the engine risk as far as I'm concerned.
I absolutely do not believe that changing from a 10/40 to a 20/50 will initiate an oil related failure. Did I read that "street miles" showed no problems but that "passes" did? There's your answer. The high G launch on a drag strip is never found on the street. You unported the pickup and aerated the oil.
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Megabyte
Pro
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posted December 19, 2007 03:56 PM
Anybody know if it's possible to install a swinging pickup in a stock pan? All this talk about bearings, and unporting the oil pickup is stressing me out 
Thanks
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Megabyte
Pro
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posted December 19, 2007 04:09 PM
While we're on the subject, I'd really appreciate hearing what our experts think of the Scotts Oil Filter. Is it just for posers? Scotts claims that "It filters down to 35 microns "absolute" which is 3 times better than most good paper and brass filters that will pass particles in the 90 to 95 micron range."
Thanks again.
Scotts Stainless Steel Oil Filters have superior filtration. Made from laser-cut, medical grade, type 304 stainless steel micronic filter cloth, to provide unmatched protection against oil contamination and the resulting engine damage. This filter provides 200% more filter area in many cases. It filters down to 35 microns "absolute" which is 3 times better than most good paper and brass filters that will pass particles in the 90 to 95 micron range. A human hair is about 140 microns. The pleat seam is welded in our filter, not glued like paper filters, and will withstand up to 600 degrees Fahrenheit!
It is cleanable and reusable. Simply remove the filter, rinse in clean solvent and replace it, you're done. The filter can be cleaned with solvent, kerosene, aerosol, carburetor cleaner, or any other degreasing agent, even common dish soap. Blow air through the filter from the inside out to remove any small particles or cleaning agent from the screen.
The oil filters will have consistent flow under all conditions. Stainless steel will stand up to the stress of heat, high pressure and physical handling much better than paper or brass. This filter maintains consistent flow under all conditions including cold start up and under extreme heat. A one inch square of this micron filter material will flow 1.9 gallons of 90 weight oil per minute at only 1 psi pump pressure. Out standard filter size is 30 sq. inches which equals the flow of 57 gallons per minute! Standard paper filters do not flow well when the oil is cold, which can cause the bypass valve to open, allowing unfiltered, dirty oil to enter the engine.
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KZScott
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posted December 19, 2007 05:25 PM
quote:
Anybody know if it's possible to install a swinging pickup in a stock pan? All this talk about bearings, and unporting the oil pickup is stressing me out
Thanks
+1!
I might try out the masterlube accumulator, or see if i cant make one of my own....
but im going to try out a few little tricks to help prevent unporting the pickup on hard launches. baffles, gasket that is "too big" and overlaps in the pan a bit...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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capt10ed
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted December 19, 2007 05:31 PM
Edited By: capt10ed on 19 Dec 2007 17:32
It is interesting to so much though on the matter. I knew that the old KZ's were roller bearings and needed very little pressure. But the plain bearing DO need oil pressure.
So I guess it is safe t o say my 04 zx12 with a 1287 idleing at 1200 and using a Pureolator pureone oil filter and running 5/30 synthetic should be a round for while, mainly be cause I REALY suck at riding a wheelie.
Entropy how thick of a shim do you use to get that kind of pressure? Just in case I get bored this winter!!!
____________
2014 Loring AFB 14 runs over 200mph
with a best of 208.1 in 1.5 miles
and 204.5 in the mile.
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted December 19, 2007 05:51 PM
oh, and Im switching to Royal Purple like entropy and nox. probly going to try the xpr or racing 11. (hope they dont mind me posting this) entropy runs the xpr 10w40, nox runs racing 11 5w20
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 20, 2007 09:31 AM
Swinging pick up? No
Deep Sump? Works well, but prohibits extreme lowering.
Masterlube? Very much Yes, works extremely well, but it brings a "packaging" issue.
Dry Sump? The ultimate solution, but with even more packaging issues.
You can reposition the pickup to the back, but then you unport on braking which will eventually cause the same failures.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Texas12R
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posted December 20, 2007 09:45 AM
Thanks Doug!
This is exactly why I generally state " I reserve the right to be wrong"
I try not to perpetuate the cycle of bad information ,but Im prone to
repeat things I have heard in the past.....I should exercise some restraint.
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ninja12
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posted December 23, 2007 09:01 PM
Doug, do you feel that a 1.45 60's would unport thepick-up.
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KZScott
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posted December 23, 2007 10:46 PM
Doug should know for sure, but i think 1.3s are in the range where you need to worry. not sure where i heard/read that....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 24, 2007 04:08 AM
i uncovered the pickup with the Coby pan at 1.5's...
swinging pickup Koenig didn't uncover at low 1.4's.
BUT there is an issue with uncovering the pickup when you dump the throttle at the big end also...
i dunno about the stock pan.
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