Megabyte
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posted December 10, 2007 10:56 AM
If you have a ZX12 Big bore...
If you have a ZX12 big bore, how do you feel about the Muzzy The ZX-14 1530cc Stroker Kit with up to 240hp and 140ft-lbs. of torque? Personally, I think our reign is over... The stock 14 is no problem, but there's no way I can match the 1530 stroker. I don't even think Karl's 1427 would be up to the task. Since I still hate the looks of the 14, I'm not sure where to go from here. However, whatever I do, it's painfully clear that the 14 can do it better....
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 10, 2007 12:49 PM
Right now I think Karl's 1427 would give it a fair run on the dyno. In a few weeks I think Karl will surpass that amount.
I think the ZX-14 1530 stroker kit is real cool........ but if you want to look at it that way, a 1999 Busa still has it beat when you bore and stroke it making the 14 stroker rather obsolete way back then. I think Carpenter sells a "270HP" motor or something like that 1600+cc.
As a ZX-12 owner I hear ya though. It's tough! Couple more years and it'll be vintage!
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Phantom13
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posted December 10, 2007 01:12 PM
I'm not so convinced about the ZX-14 just yet....
As of right now, the fastest N/A Big bore (1452cc) ZX-14 has only gone 200.5mph N/A with Chad Millholland (125 lb pro rider) riding at Maxton. This ZX-14 is Greg's of HPC. Greg ran 191mph on this ZX14 N/A..... he's my size and weight.
The fastest N/A Big bore (1287cc) ZX-12R went 205.6mph N/A with Sal Spatafora (170 lb pro rider) riding at Maxton. This big bore ZX-12R is mine. Hell, I personally went 200mph on the rev limiter in 6th at Maxton, my first time out there.... and I was 220 lbs naked at the time.
I don't know about the stroker ZX-14's.... but the Big Bore ZX-14's haven't claimed the Big Bore Thrown from my ZX-12R just yet.
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Phantom13
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posted December 10, 2007 01:31 PM
quote:
Right now I think Karl's 1427 would give it a fair run on the dyno. In a few weeks I think Karl will surpass that amount.
I think the ZX-14 1530 stroker kit is real cool........ but if you want to look at it that way, a 1999 Busa still has it beat when you bore and stroke it making the 14 stroker rather obsolete way back then. I think Carpenter sells a "270HP" motor or something like that 1600+cc.
As a ZX-12 owner I hear ya though. It's tough! Couple more years and it'll be vintage!
Don't believe everything you read.... you've got to read between the lines.
1. Carpenter uses STD correction factors, giving 4.4% higher readings than the SAE corrections which are much more accurate and more widely used/accepted. So 270rwhp is really 258rwhp SAE.
2. Carpenter (as well as most popular tuners like KWS and MUZZYS) have very optimistic dyno's. This is most commonly caused by the drum wear from excessive use.
3. Power is made mostly from the efficiency of the head and cams. This being said, a super large head port may produce more flow and thus more power with the static air in the dyno room, but will not perform well on the street because of the loss in air velocity from the super large "dyno horsepower" ports. So you can't always assume an engine will perform well just because a particular engine builder is making big power from it.
I've known of a couple 210rwhp Big bore ZX-12R's that were PIGS on the street, getting spanked by stock piped Busa's at the Florida 9/10th Mile.
Does anyone know anyone with a Carpenter engine that is going fast at Maxton, Goliad, or Bonneville? That would be the most accurate gauge for the performance of a Carpenter engine, not a dyno horsepower number.
Wouldn't you agree?
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zx12mark
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posted December 10, 2007 04:14 PM
I've known of a couple 210rwhp Big bore ZX-12R's that were PIGS on the street, getting spanked by stock piped Busa's at the Florida 9/10th Mile.
give us a fucking break.something is big time wrong for that to happen so it's bullshit..
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oldkawboy
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posted December 10, 2007 04:36 PM
Hey Phantom,
I've seen on another board where you talk about your 12 being the fastest n/a 12 and it may well be but until it runs 208 like both the boys have at Maxton then I'm thinking it's second fastest for now.
They both rode Tim Haigs 1361 to 208+ and Chad had a record for a while at 207.xx until it was broken. I can dig it out if the need arises and I don't mean to split hairs but........
I'm sure Sal will see 210 on yours when the conditions are right and I'm confident you know how important a role the weather plays. Chad's run of 200 on the big bore 14 would have been faster in decent conditions. Sal knows what the September meets temp & humidity was like.
Dan
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osti33
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posted December 10, 2007 07:34 PM
 Edited By: osti33 on 11 Dec 2007 06:34
quote:
Does anyone know anyone with a Carpenter engine that is going fast at Maxton, Goliad, or Bonneville? That would be the most accurate gauge for the performance of a Carpenter engine, not a dyno horsepower number.
Wouldn't you agree?
Umm yeah, I can think of a Carpenter product going fast at Bonneville.
The fastest all motor sit-on/non-streamliner bike in the country is running on Carpenter power! The team of Forstall, DeLuca, and Knecum went 226.3xx at Bonneville with a one way speed of over 230 on a busa that has a Carpenter head and cams on it.
If that doesn't count as a Carpenter power going fast I don't know what does...
And no I don't work for Carpenter or even have any of his parts on my bike. Just trying to give credit where credit is due.
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megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted December 10, 2007 08:34 PM
quote:
but if you want to look at it that way, a 1999 Busa still has it beat when you bore and stroke it making the 14 stroker rather obsolete way back then.
Agreed, but I can't stand the looks of the busa either 
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entropy
Moderator
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posted December 11, 2007 01:04 AM
quote:
If you have a ZX12 big bore, how do you feel about the Muzzy The ZX-14 1530cc Stroker Kit with up to 240hp and 140ft-lbs. of torque? Personally, I think our reign is over... The stock 14 is no problem, but there's no way I can match the 1530 stroker. I don't even think Karl's 1427 would be up to the task. Since I still hate the looks of the 14, I'm not sure where to go from here. However, whatever I do, it's painfully clear that the 14 can do it better....
Mega,
the beauty of the 14 is two fold:
1. the cylinder length is designed for its stroke. A stroker 12 w/a spacer plate is a compromise giving scuffing & shorter piston life, prob a bit less pwr
2. the head is designed for the cyl spacing. My offset cylinders are offset wrt to the head, gotta be bad for flow, prob a bit less power.
My 1427 will never make the power a seriously built 14/1530 will.
Also, a 1530cc Zx14 will never make the power a seriously built 1610? Busa will.
That said, I am still real happy that my 1427 is now making good hp.
(thanks 110% to the advice of DarkFalcon, TimChin, Y2K, DaveO, Noonan, Meyer, JC, Andy, Chris Lovett, and many others) 
so for mojo NA hp, my advice to Mega is:
do like Osti..
1. tack up a pic of a Busa in yr garage.
2. Then surround it with pics of yr favorite tits n' ass.
3. After a while, thinking of that Busa will give you a warm n' fuzzy feeling.
4. retire the 12 to street-duty (or sell it to Harry, he'll buy anything)
5. Buy a Busa and build a 1600cc+ motor
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 11, 2007 07:23 AM
I did put the 270HP in " " for a reason.
You Guys Are Evil going to the DarkSide (Busa)! I didn't think that was allowed on this site!
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Megabyte
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Posts: 1047
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posted December 11, 2007 07:41 AM
TRNorBRN6001, I'm not going over to the darkside, not yet anyway
Karl, I think most of us pretty much know that maxed out, the busa rules, ouch did I say that
I think pics of T&A would just remind me of how unsexy the busa is, but thanks for the idea Now if big K would just put a 1500cc in their zx12, well now that would be heaven. Since that's not going to happen, we're all relying on you to show us the way, so best of luck with your build!
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 11, 2007 07:48 AM
Edited By: TRNorBRN6001 on 11 Dec 2007 07:55
No doubt there is a tiny bit of wear on the drum, but most of the happy dynos are from
calibration manipulation. I am not saying that these builders are manipulating the dynos themselves. Sometimes they just come like that, all nice and happy.
.............................but you are right street/track is very different than a dyno.
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KZScott
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posted December 11, 2007 10:56 AM
What Kawi needs to do, is design a 2 litre yup 2000cc bike, then shrink the bore down to a 1499cc(ZX-15R) displacement leaving the bore spacing the same. sure the bike might be a little bit wider, but leave the same mono frame as the 12r and 14 and it wouldnt be too bad. leave it wide open for the aftermarket to punch it out to the full 2000cc with just a piston kit!!! total domination without even stroking the crank!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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Megabyte
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Posts: 1047
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posted December 11, 2007 11:39 AM
Yeah, and with a stroker kit from Muzzy and a turbo from Mr. Turbo, the skies the limit Sure fun to dream.... Ok, back to work.
quote]What Kawi needs to do, is design a 2 litre yup 2000cc bike, then shrink the bore down to a 1499cc(ZX-15R) displacement leaving the bore spacing the same. sure the bike might be a little bit wider, but leave the same mono frame as the 12r and 14 and it wouldnt be too bad. leave it wide open for the aftermarket to punch it out to the full 2000cc with just a piston kit!!! total domination without even stroking the crank!
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KZScott
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posted December 11, 2007 01:34 PM
they need someone like me (crazy) behind the build team at Kawi lol 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Phantom13
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posted December 13, 2007 02:10 PM
quote:
Hey Phantom,
I've seen on another board where you talk about your 12 being the fastest n/a 12 and it may well be but until it runs 208 like both the boys have at Maxton then I'm thinking it's second fastest for now.
They both rode Tim Haigs 1361 to 208+ and Chad had a record for a while at 207.xx until it was broken. I can dig it out if the need arises and I don't mean to split hairs but........
I'm sure Sal will see 210 on yours when the conditions are right and I'm confident you know how important a role the weather plays. Chad's run of 200 on the big bore 14 would have been faster in decent conditions. Sal knows what the September meets temp & humidity was like.
Dan
IF you read more carefully, you'd see I wrote, "Fastest N/A Big Bore Kawasaki".... as in BIG BORE, not STROKER.
We've already found 3+mph in the bike since Maxton.... 208mph should not be a problem , N/A if the conditions are somewhat decent.
Sal ran 205.6mph being geared way too tall, Datalogger broken, Not strapped at all (we've lowered it about 2" since then), not painted, first time riding a ZX-12R at Maxton. I'm still shocked it went 205+mph considering everything working against us on the bike at the time. lol
So dust off that stroker 12R of yours and let Chad and Sal duke it out in the SAME CONDITIONS on the SAME DAY. In all reality, that's the only TRUE way to see which is faster.....
Keep in mind, this is a 1287cc Engine....... You or anyone else is free to inspect for nitrous and/or a spacer plate at any time.
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"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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oldkawboy
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posted December 13, 2007 02:44 PM
Why in the world would I want to inspect the bike for nitrous or a spacer plate? I've never, repeat never hinted at you being a cheater.
I love seeing 12's run good and yours does for sure so I'll re-word my post..... The boys have ridden the fastest n/a big bore, stroker, 2000 model, red, slightly dirty ZX12R from Knoxville, Tennessee. Happy? I know I am!
Dan
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KZScott
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posted December 13, 2007 04:13 PM
you can "hide" a stroker with shorter rods, just because theres no spacer plate doesnt mean it isnt stroked. but i believe you phantom when you say its 1287cc 
oldkawboy, is there any special headwork or great big hairy cams in that 1361 like phantoms 1287?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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oldkawboy
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posted December 13, 2007 07:50 PM
The 1361 had the Muzzy Race Cams kit and the head was just cleaned up. Coby Adams worked the head later but due to rod bearing problems the bike has not made any passes at Maxton after the head work.
Dan
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted December 14, 2007 09:52 AM
quote:
you can "hide" a stroker with shorter rods, just because theres no spacer plate doesnt mean it isnt stroked. but i believe you phantom when you say its 1287cc
oldkawboy, is there any special headwork or great big hairy cams in that 1361 like phantoms 1287?
KZ Scott
Phantoms has stg2 head work and custom mild cams,and is a very very reliable motor.
Starts on 1 battery.
There is no need to run everything maxed out to be fast.
That is where I have experience when it comes to R&D with the real world results.
less can sometimes be better and go faster, if you have the complete and
complimenting package a happy mariage inside your motor  then you can go fast !
Sal.
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40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 14, 2007 10:18 AM
A small/skinny person helps a little too!!!!!
yep, I like them sleeper Busa motors without spacer plates.......................great for the street!
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Phantom13
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posted December 14, 2007 12:46 PM
quote:
Why in the world would I want to inspect the bike for nitrous or a spacer plate? I've never, repeat never hinted at you being a cheater.
I love seeing 12's run good and yours does for sure so I'll re-word my post..... The boys have ridden the fastest n/a big bore, stroker, 2000 model, red, slightly dirty ZX12R from Knoxville, Tennessee. Happy? I know I am!
Dan
Oh, I know you've never implied I'm cheating or lying.... I just would rather the bike be inspected. I know how people on the internet start "speculating" when the underdog wins. So basically, I want to be able to put any doubts to rest about my set-up.
I'm already hearing rumors floating that I'm running a stroker... lol
As for the "title".... Chad and your 1361 stroker are the Fastest N/A Kawasaki in the country.... Period. 208mph is going to be tough to beat with a 1287.... but we're going to try and raise the bar a hair next time around.
I think we all can agree, we're all happy so long as the fastest N/A and Nitrous Kawasaki's are both ZX-12R's.
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before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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KZScott
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posted December 14, 2007 11:03 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 14 Dec 2007 23:11
quote:
I think we all can agree, we're all happy so long as the fastest N/A and Nitrous Kawasaki's are both ZX-12R's.
it makes me very happy
now if Chad from Echo Cycle would just finish his turbo and let somebody compete with it....hmm 3 title holders being 12s?
edit: oh i guess i forgot DM is putting his turbo bike back together minus the hard bags... think he will run it at bonneville again?:P
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 16, 2007 07:38 PM
He might. He sure misses The Salt. BAD.
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KZScott
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posted December 16, 2007 11:02 PM
Doug, you need a new plate anyway, one that reads "IGO 250"
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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