posted July 13, 2002 08:07 PM
HELP!!! '00 12R ventilates block @ 8500 miles Help guys!
My 00 12R ventilated the crankcase today with just over 8500 miles clocked! This SUCKS!
I have religiously maintained my 12. I was only halfway through my 3rd tire and have had no clutch problems--I ride it hard but getting 3000+ miles out of each tire and not toasting the weak clutch suggests I am far from the hardest riding 12 owner. Bike was maintained with Kawi oil filter and Mobile1 synthetic motorcycle oil every 2500mi.
How it happened--83 degrees F, good air, riding about 80mph when motor loses power, then locks, spewing oil and sliding rear tire. I was glad I was on a straight and able to get it stopped without incident despite the oil covered tire.
Once stopped, I look in behind radiator--apparently #3 broke a rod and knocked a large chunk of the crankase (2" x 2.5") out right below the cylinder gasket.
Has #3 been a common breaking point on 00 12Rs? Any ideas on what might have caused this?
Bike has NEVER been down or on its side; wheelies are typically just whatever power wheelies occur if I crank on it too quickly--I don't typically ride wheelies.
I did purchase extended warranty from Kawi. Any advice on what I should demand? Clearly the crankcase etc. but should they just replace the entire bottom end including tranny? Any risks with re-using top end (head/cams)? With all the metal that could have been circulating before failure, I am not sure I want to take my chances with the rest of the engine being re-used--is this just me being paranoid or do I have a case with the dealer?
Also, I am thinking this might be a good time to get a stroker kit--if they repair they will have to split/replace cases so if I can talk the dealer into using warranty labor to install a stroker kit I will. Thoughts on this? Which/whose kit? 1290? 13?? 1361?
So, my riding season has been seriously reduced this year--will take a least a month, maybe more, to get this thing back together and by then the IA riding season will be more than half over--that sucks!
Thanks for your advice in advance.
Take care,
Mike
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Mike
2000 ZX-12R, Green
________________________
posted July 14, 2002 04:48 AM
Good save; great riding dude. Could have been much, much worse! I'd have the bike at the dealer immediately demanding (nicely) warranty coverage. 8500 miles is nothing compared to some (Sherman, etc.), so if the oil was at the proper level & clean they should cover you.
____________
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02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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posted July 14, 2002 07:08 AM
Glad to hear you are ok! If you have the xtended warranty, I would be very fastidious in every aspect of your dealings with the dealership. Ie; thoroughly document the time, place of the engine failure. If possible, take photos of the road, of your bike with the fairings on, and photos of it as each fairing piece is removed. Get photos of the motor as visible from a normal viewing perspective. DO NOT remove anything from the motor, or even use something like a pencil to point out a specific feature of the failure. Treat it like a crime scene, because if the dealership or Kaw balks on the repair/replacement, you'll need a lawyer. You may want to consult a lawyer in any case, to discuss any product liability issues. Be polite but firm with the dealership, and document phone conversations and meetings with them. When you deliver the bike to the dealership, take photos of them taking delivery of it, and hang on to any documentation like a service order. Keep all the documentation in a file for ready reference.
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82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted July 14, 2002 07:29 AM
Edited By: marlon1 on 14 Jul 2002 08:30
Swift, excellent advice, if the dealer can find a way out of repairing it they will. I would suggest you replace any thing you have took of the bike and if you have a timing advancer installed get it out and put the stock one back. These dealers are ass-holes looking to get out of anything they can when it comes to repair. STAND YOUR GROUND...good luck
posted July 14, 2002 12:07 PM
Thanks for the advice! Thanks for the advice, guys. All great things to know and I appreciate the brotherhood you guys provide.
Entropy, you asked:
>>Where did you run the oil level? Middle of the window??
Middle of the window with bike propped vertical.
>>Did you change yr own oil; filling the oil filter before >>replacing it ea time?
yes, changed my own, filling the filter before screwing it on to ensure immediate oil pressure. Used around 3 quarts in crankcase and the several ozs filter took.
>>Have you got the crankcase breather hooked up to the >>Kleen Air reed valves?
I followed Stentman's photos/write-up from long ago to block off clean air connection to airbox. I did this long enough ago that I am not sure what hooked to what but will check it again while documenting damage with digital photos. Are you thinking that crankcase pressure would be an issue? Wouldn't that be likely to cause seal/gasket failure and oil leaks? My 12 uses an imperceptible amount of oil--maybe 3-4 oz. between changes if weather is super hot.
Thanks again for the great advice guys! I am sure it will help in getting my 12 back on the road with the fewest warranty hassles.
Take care,
Mike
____________
Mike
2000 ZX-12R, Green
________________________
posted July 14, 2002 01:32 PM
Mike, Not saying that this is the problem. I have wondered if the 12's problem with oil pressure immediately after changing the oil and filter was going to lead to engine damage. I remember several people (myself included) that have stated a problem exists with oil pressure when starting the bike after an oil change or after the bike falls over. At least one member was present when the dealership started the bike at delivery and had the same problem. It is my belief that there is an inherent design problem with the oiling system on this bike. Even when I prefill the filter with oil, I still have to burb the engine with the starter numerous times until the oil pressure light flickers. Then I can start the bike and the oil lamp will go out immediately. I'll bet that lots of dealerships and owners just let the bike run with the oil lamp lit. This results in little or no oil pressure going to the bearings. How much damage results each time this occurs? How long till a problem like yours arises from the accumulated damage?
I hope that Kawasaki comes through fro you and takes care of this issue. If not, get some legal representation or help from your state's comsumer protection department. Maybe a bunch of us should take our bikes in for warranty repairs for the after oil change problem. After doing so three times we can file claims under a lemon law.
quote:...>>Have you got the crankcase breather hooked up to the >>Kleen Air reed valves?
I followed Stentman's photos/write-up from long ago to block off clean air connection to airbox. I did this long enough ago that I am not sure what hooked to what but will check it again while documenting damage with digital photos. Are you thinking that crankcase pressure would be an issue?...
I'm not pointing at anything, but I have a FBG vacuum pump which pulls a much stronger vaccum on the crankcase than simply connecting the oil breather to the kleen Air (which you apparently didn't do anyway)
I have noticed a flickering of my oil light at idle while using the vac pump and wonder if the pulling of a vac on the crankcase is bad for the bike.
This doesn't seem to be a factor so don't worry about this aspect. ____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
posted July 15, 2002 07:47 AM
Is trying to get the dealers to do warranty work as hard as you all make it sound?
When I mention warranty coverage for my 12 to my dealer, the first question is did I buy it from them...I say no, but I get all my services done there. Why should it matter where I bought it from. Grrr...
posted July 15, 2002 01:59 PM
Hey Kick,,, where in IA do you live and what dealer are you taking it to? I would think that they would not be able to tell what happened untill they take it apart, make sure if you have a kill switch or anything like that on there you remove it!! I have know other people to have had oiling problems, I had them with my new motor but I think the combination of running the oil at the low line and dragracing caused problems for me, I now run mine a little high on oil just incase, and I hate to say this but you will probably be down longer then 1 month. if I were you I would go with the 1361 kit you will love it!! while it is apart, and the dealer will probably put it together for hardly any extra if any at all.
Mad Mike
Moderator
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posted July 15, 2002 05:06 PM
Excellent memory, rs! QUOTE: At least one member was present when the dealership started the bike at delivery and had the same problem.
I believe that you might be talking about me!
When my baby arrived at my dealer, I had great hopes that I was to be the first 12R owner in the state. The other 12R that was on the same truck had yet to have been delivered to another dealer that was about 25 miles away. I knew who was getting it and I also know that he was waiting there for it's arrival.
My dealer's mechanics and I figured that we could have mine uncrated and running at least two hours before Arkansas 12 got his. Of course, being "first" doesn't really mean diddly when number 7... 8... 15... arrives. After all, who cares who got the first '98 Grand Am in town? Okay, a bad comparison, but I regress.
Anyway, we quickly uncrated the bike and put on the front wheel so we could roll it into the shop. We drained the what oil that was in the bike and put in 4 quarts of MX4T (we can debate starting off with synthetic oil later). Of course, nobody bothered to look at the A&P Sheet, so we didn't know that we only needed THREE quarts.
As soon as we put the oil cap back on and put some gas in the tank, their head mechanic let me hit the starter button. It fired right up. It seemed like it no sooner got started before he started yelling... "SHUT IT OFF! SHUT IT OFF!". We thought that the bike had caught on fire or something. Hell, it seemed like it had only been running for less the five seconds.
He went to his tool box, got some tools and started taking the left lower fairing off. The rest of us didn't have a clue on what the deal was. Everything sounded right. Especially when I gave the throttle a slight blip. As he was taking of the screws, he just looked up and said, "No oil pressure.".
WTF? He went on to explain that he had a new Vulcan with the same exact problem and they didn't know what the deal was. He removed the oil sensor and hooked up an oil pressure gauge. I started the bike again and after a couple of seconds, he told me to turn it off. As he stood back up, he just nodded his head and said, "Nothing, no pressure at all.".
ARGH! I didn't know what to do and neither did they. They had a call into KMC Tech Support on the Vulcan, but they had not heard back from them yet. Thoughts of waiting for the next 12R to arrive started going through my head. Even though another 12R wasn't due to arrive for at least six weeks, I figured that getting parts would take even longer. Even the owner of the dealership was in a panic. Probably worse then me.
I went home "bikeless" and was not the first 12R owner in the state. Oh well, I was just hoping that the next 12R that came in was NOT red!
KMC called the next day and said that the problem with both the Vulcan and my 12R was that an air pocket had developed in the system while the bike was in transit. They also said that all we had to do was to remove the oil filter, hit the starter few times until it belched out some oil, put the filter back on and everything would be fine.
So far (34K miles), so good... BUT,
I have heard that this "air pocket" thing has occured during an oil change as well. Even if the oil had been change several times before. This type of problem might be "old news" to some old & wise mechanics, but until I got my bike (and the Vulcan), my dealer's mechanics had never heard or seen such a thing in almost ten years of uncrating and working on Kawasakis.
Combine this with the same problems that some have had when their bike ended up on it side, one can't help but wonder what the deal is. Like I said, many mechanics are not aware of the 12R's finicky oil system and would think nothing of letting an engine run with it oil light on. Some would likely think that it was the oil sensor or something like that.
Even though I used to not put oil in the filter, during a oil change, I will now. I've probably changed my oil 15 times and the problem has not reoccured. Still, everytime I hit that button for the first time, I watch that oil light like a hawk. If it doesn't go out by the count of two, I'd shut the bike off.
That has happened one time. to be honest. instead of shutting it off, I gave it ONE MORE second... and the light went out. That alone is reason enough for me to put oil in the filter first from now on.
All the same, there isn't any reason why, when regularly and properly maintained, that it should have this problem. Unless you spent every one of those 8500 miles with the front wheel being 3' up in the air, I mean EVERY ONE of them, that your dealer, KMC or KHI would not honor the repair and replacement of EVERY part that was damaged. There isn't a SINGLE reason why not to honor this claim.
Your dealer and his mechanics might not be aware of this "issue", but I promise you that KMC and KHI are WELL AWARE of it. Like with the "clutch issue", there might be some kicking and whinning on their part, but on this one, they ain't got a leg to stand on.
I just hope that a lot of your needed parts won't be on backorder forever. Good luck.
____________
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posted July 15, 2002 08:26 PM
It shouldn't be too much of an issue getting the parts, I was able to do so in just a few weeks.
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82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
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posted July 17, 2002 07:34 AM
Thinking about it, I'd be pretty adamant about a complete replacement of the lower half of the motor, at the very minimum. No reason to suspect any damage to the head. Since the head costs more than the crank, cylinder and cases put together, don't see why they wouldn't go with that. Course, that would be my 'fallback' plan. First thing I would ask for would be a complete replacement of the motor.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted July 18, 2002 05:46 PM
Questions for Swft, entropy, and others... Thanks for all your suggestions on this issue. Couple more questions if you don't mind:
Swft--when you say complete replacement of bottom end, do you mean all internal components including transmission etc. or just broken case, bearings, crank, rods, pistons? What about cylinder?
1) what can I do to improve oiling/oil pick up to ensure this does not happen again? I really don't want this to happen in a corner or traffic and end up hurting something much more important than the engine--me or others!
3) if you were rebuilding a daily rider that you wanted to last 15 or 20k miles of riding on the street but say 30% agressive cornering at high engine speeds/accelerations, what would you rebuild--stock? 1270? 1361? I see SWFT has a 1340--what kit is that? Is that just a 1361 crank with no overbore?
I like engines that rev with a stronger and stronger pick up in power rather than a big pull then fall off and I ride two-up on many occasions. Does the stroker kit make the power more controllable/smoother delivery? How is increased low-end on 1270--not really noticeable or enough to keep all but the power crazed happy? I am running stock gearing.
4) any better clutch kits than the Muzzys?
Other thoughts?
Thanks in advance for your help guys!
Take care,
Mike
____________
Mike
2000 ZX-12R, Green
________________________
Needs a life
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posted July 19, 2002 04:37 AM
quote:Swft--when you say complete replacement of bottom end, do you mean all internal components including transmission etc. or just broken case, bearings, crank, rods, pistons? What about cylinder?
Yeah, basically, I'd tell them to take the head off your motor and put it on another motor. That'd be about the only part I'd be willing to keep without a competent machinist (which you won't find at a dealer) checking out all the tolerances on the part.
quote:1) what can I do to improve oiling/oil pick up to ensure this does not happen again? I really don't want this to happen in a corner or traffic and end up hurting something much more important than the engine--me or others!
The crankshafts that are coming back from the crank guy that MVR and Muzzys uses are featuring chamfered oil holes. This improves oil flow on the bottom end of the block, thereby retaining more oil in the bottom of the motor. Short of an oil accumulator, I guess the same tricks as were used on a ZX11 could be used on a ZX12R, ie; restricting the oil flow to the top of the motor.
quote:3) if you were rebuilding a daily rider that you wanted to last 15 or 20k miles of riding on the street but say 30% agressive cornering at high engine speeds/accelerations, what would you rebuild--stock? 1270? 1361? I see SWFT has a 1340--what kit is that? Is that just a 1361 crank with no overbore?
I'd build a 1270 as a daily driver. A stock stroke crank is going to be stronger than a rewelded crank. My 1347 is a 1270 motor with a custom stroke to get me as close as possible to the 1350cc limit for the 1200-1350cc class at Bonneville.
quote:I like engines that rev with a stronger and stronger pick up in power rather than a big pull then fall off and I ride two-up on many occasions. Does the stroker kit make the power more controllable/smoother delivery? How is increased low-end on 1270--not really noticeable or enough to keep all but the power crazed happy? I am running stock gearing.
Either kit will add torque at any usable rpm. Here's a dyno chart of my 1270 motor:
And of my 1361 motor, compared against the 1270:
quote:4) any better clutch kits than the Muzzys?
I don't think so. If you are building the 1361, then I'd recommend a billet hub.
posted August 13, 2002 03:59 PM
Update--Kawi dealer claims shop towel found inside engine! Nearly a month after delivering dead 12R to dealer (not selling dealer--they are too small and did not have time, or so they said, for a complete teardown/rebuild), dealer calls and says they have engine apart. Asks me if bike ever had cases off. Ever had any warranty work or modifications.
I detail all non-internal mods--Akro, PCIIIR, K&N filters, Klean-Air bypass--and note that other than changing oil the engine has never been open (drain, filter, fill are only openings that have been touched).
Dealer goes on to explain that they found some sort of "heavy duty shop towel" inside the engine and that this towel has begun to disintegrate and fibers had plugged the oil pick up. They are calling Kawasaki to see if they are going to cover under warranty (I have extended). What the heck? I don't care if they found a tampon inside the engine--the thing has never been open!
So, oil starvation took out #3 but others were heating up and were going to have problems as well.
I am still doubtful that the "shop towel" if it exists is what clogged the pick-up--I am thinking its more likely the clutch fibers since they mentioned "fibers" clogging the pick-up.
Anyway--don't know what to think. I do know I have purchased 6 new Kawasakis including 1000R, ZX10, ZX11, and ZX12 and I will be damned if I pay for a new engine that I have never had apart!
Just providing an update. Thanks for the support.
Take care,
Mike
____________
Mike
2000 ZX-12R, Green
________________________
posted August 13, 2002 08:43 PM
Edited By: EastBayDave on 13 Aug 2002 21:50
A rag in the engine? Hmmm. I immediately ask myself, who did the valve adjustment last time (has it ever had one?) I've thrown a shop rag in the cam-chain "hole" (to keep shims/etc. from falling down into the cylinder/block) while the cams are out. The towel keeps things from falling down in the "black hole."
If you've ever dropped the cam-chain down there it can be a bitch to get out. Once I dropped a shim down there & it buried itself in the bowels of the bottom case in the crank area. Luckily I had a long flexable magnet. After some worried searching I eventually found it. Shew!
Thing is, when putting the cams back in, how could you possibly miss it? Maybe it's something THEY did...did they do your last "tune-up?"
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
posted August 13, 2002 10:39 PM
Reminds of when I had oil running out of the airbox on my 12. It had about 450 miles on it so I took back to the dealer. They determined that when the oil was changed at 350 miles that it had been overfilled. So they gave me a stern lecture about the proper oil level and handed me a special handout from Kawasaki so I wouldn't make the same mistake twice. I took the paper, looked at the service manager and mechanic and calming asked " Which one of you fucking morons do I give this hand out to. After all I paid you dickheads for the oil change and if my bike was overfilled it was done so by yoou!" They took the handout, apologized and ate the fucking bill.
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