fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted June 30, 2002 06:04 PM
** THE ADVERTISING POLICY OF THIS WEBSITE. PLEASE READ **
This post is to CLARIFY the policy of this website for those who own companies and wish to advertise their products here.
This website costs money to operate. Currently we only allow paying sponsors to advertise their products on this site. These paying sponsors keep this site afloat. It is simply unfair to them to allow companies who have not supported us to try and sell their products here.
Bikeland.org is currently the largest ZX12R website in the world. We are very fortunate to have an extremely knowledgeable user base, comprised of both owners and industry professionals. It is unusual for a person to have access to all of the resources which we have here, in one place.
It is our goal to continue to provide this website as a service free of charge to the end user, as we at admin feel very strongly that any company benefiting from this site financially should help pay for it to continue.
Also understand that if you are a user selling something privately (not a retail company) we offer a classified section free of charge ...
Also understand that if you are a user and you come up with something great and want to sell it to the guys, that's fine too... I.e.: heat blankets etc...
The people this post is targeted at know who they are.
If you wish to support this site and advertise your products here, you can contact us for a complete set of current advertising rates at webmaster@bikeland.org
I hope that people are not offended by this, but we have a set of rules, and they must be applied equally to everyone.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
   
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TRC51
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted June 30, 2002 06:18 PM
OK, so you have to be talking about my post then....since it is now MIA on the board. Of course I was just trying to help some people get a good deal on the Dussault tail, and get me the 15% off while in the process. But hey, screw me for trying to get some guys a good deal and wit a little selfish intent as well. Personally I don't see the difference between my post and the "great deals for us" post. But what do I know.
I apologize for trying to help you guys save some money on what I conisder to be a good product (oh wait, was I advertising there). I won't try and do it again.
DO you think I am a rep or something?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted June 30, 2002 06:41 PM
it's not just your post.. there were 2 others that were removed. Dont take it personally...
And it sure seemed like you were acting like a rep...
believe me.. I have to act fairly here.
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TRC51
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted June 30, 2002 08:07 PM
Fine, then in all "fairness" delete the "Great deals for us" post. In all honesty I hope you don't, but that would be fair....would it not?
Listen, like I said.... I bumped into redelk at deals gap. He and all the gadgets he has installed... we talked for half an hour about the stuff I could put on my new 02 12R. He was running the 180 rennsport, and talked about how I should switch to the 180 from my recent 190. Then he suggested I stay away from the TN side of the CHerahola highway, since it was raing over there. As I walked away, he said to come check out this site.... have been ever since, but have had nothing significant to share that most didn't already know.
All that in mind.... I was just trying to get people a good deal, and emailed Robert to try and set it up. How is that any different than the "Great deals for us" tire deals? If you are going to be fair... then be fair.
Thank you for your consideration, I will accept any reply you give, and leave this issue without further reply
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Zhooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
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posted June 30, 2002 08:29 PM
Since Fish operates and takes care of this site for our benefit and he has to pay the bills let him take care of things.
____________
To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted June 30, 2002 08:31 PM
I have stated our policies, and we are abiding by them.
Thanks.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted June 30, 2002 09:39 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 1 Jul 2002 07:15
TRC51, please take no offense...
... for fish doesn't mean any malicious by his stating of the board and it's forums policies. Also, welcome to our humble forum. Don't be shy, because EVERYONE has something to say (or ask).
I, as this forum's humble moderator, rarely act on the posts that advertise for a specific business (versus an individual). Maybe I should, but I usually leave that up to fish, frEEk or MadDog to address. Even for me (who's spent over a quarter of a century working in the advertising industry), I sometimes have difficulty on telling which posts are specifically for a business and which are just individuals trying to get a group rate discount with a specific business.
Also, I'm not even 100% clear on how the board's policies apply to individuals trying to get a group rate with a specific vendor. I guess that it would be safe to assume that due to fish's actions, there isn't any difference. There a good side and a bad side to this.
The bad side is that it does make it more difficult (if not impossible) to bring such group discount rates from a vendor to the attention of the forum's members.
The good side (which will always be debatable) is that it reduces the possibilities of a vendor trying to "sneak in" a plug for their business without having to pay anything for it.
At first blush, it would almost seem that there was NO good side and some don't see any problem with an occasional plug here and there. This is where it becomes EXTREMELY UNFAIR! "For who?", one would ask. The board's sponsors, that's who.
You see, businesses such as Muzzy and Spencer Cycle are not "donating" or "supporting" this site and it's forums. They are buying ad space. Some might say that it's "supporting", but by it's truest definition, it would be "sponsoring" at best. Here's why.
Network television, local radio stations and even newspapers and magazines have basically one source of income.... advertising. One might say, "But newspapers and magazines charge a subscription!". Yes, that is true. I can easily assure everyone that the subscription fee doesn't even cover the cost of the paper or printing. It really doesn't. It's those annoying ads that are the bread and butter. Especially in the case of broadcast media where no subscription fee is involved.
In the case ot "topic specific" websites, one could argue that the "coverage" or "demographics" does not compare to the numbers of even the smallest newspaper or radio station. In 99.9% of the sites out there, this would be a valid statement. I can proudly said that this is NOT the case with this site.
With close to 1500 members, over 3200 topics and over 27,000 POSTS, very few of these "topic specific" sites can compare. Yes, there are some, but not a whole lot. Unlike some sites, the number of times this site has been offline, since it's inception, can be counted on one hand. More importantly, when it does come back on line, all of the old posts and the wealth of knowledge that are contained within them... are NOT lost.
With those facts being the case, it makes this site very attractive for businesses to advertise their wares on. Ah, but there's the rub. The majority of them want to get a "freebie".
With the vast number of posts and especially the number of hits on this site, even though the majority of it is text, this site can really suck up the bandwidth. This is definitely a site that could not be hosted on EZBoard, Tripod or other such "free website" host. Fish should know. This site used to be hosted by EZBoard.
When a site administrator wants stability as well as bandwidth, somebody's going to have to cut a check. Actually, many checks for each and every month the site is on the net. When the bandwidth grows, so does the size of the check.
Since somebody's gotta pay, it boils down to "who" pays? Well, fish and frEEk have sworn to keeping this site free to it's members, so I guess that leaves them holding the proverbial "bag" each month. Like the magazine's subscription fees, the amount of income generated from the advertisers this site currently has, hardly pays for the electricity and comes nowhere close to covering the monthly bandwidth expense.
So, to make it fair to those businesses how do take the time and spend the money to underwrite this site, the administrators need to keep those "freebies" out. Is it fair to the membership? Yes and no.
Some folks, like Wilson and his business, feel that they can not afford these advertising fees, thus some folks are not aware of what products he sells. Other businesses that can afford it, seem to just try to sneak in a post plugging their goods. That's what has caused the creation and the enforcement of these policies.
The little guy gets cut out because the "established" businesses don't want to carry their fair share. The want to reach an excellent and fairly good sized target market, but they also want it for nothing. Every other form of media, print or broadcast (or even web related), they are willing to pay, but when it comes to "forum based" sites, they just don't get the picture.
IMHO, I wish the "little guy" type of businesses and those wanting to put together a group discount could have a opportunity to make the membership aware of what they have to offer. It's just that until the bigger companies learn that they can't plug their products at the expense of the site's administrators... it ain't gonna happen. I wish it wasn't that way, but it beats the hell out of each and every member having to pay $5 or $10 a month to have access to all the information and especially the friendship that is on this site.
Of course, this is just MY opinion and in no way reflects the opinions or thoughts of this site, it's advertisers or those that pay for it's existance.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Zx12RNinja
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted July 01, 2002 05:15 AM
I understand the intention of your rule's but disagree with the implmentation of them on trc51.
Just my opunion
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted July 01, 2002 07:40 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 1 Jul 2002 09:00
Thank Redelk.... nice post...
to ninija...
with regards to trc51... here is what it looks like from our standpoint:
a user logs in and his only posts ever (count them...) are selling dials for the 12... now sure it's a group deal.. but he's never contributed otherwise, so how are we to know if he doesnt work for GraphicArt? we have to use some judgement, esp since we see that company adversting on Easy's site...
that company has it's own website and webstore, also they advertise elsware, and can obviously afford to buy adpace...
BTW... they sent me a rather rude letter... apparantely they didnt like "getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar"...
so enough said... as Redelk pointed out... we are trying to come up with a different solution for companies like Wilson's to sell things here.. that's up to freek and maddog, time permitting for them to build it..
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beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
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posted July 01, 2002 07:58 AM
quote:
Since Fish operates and takes care of this site for our benefit and he has to pay the bills let him take care of things.
I agree with ZHooligan on this one also.
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TRC51
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted July 01, 2002 08:03 AM
Wasn't going to post again, but give me a break. "getting his hands caught in the cookie jar" What does that mean? I was just trying to help out. I have nothing to do with Robert except the fact that he was nice enough to put the deal together for us.
As far as it being my first post, I already explained that I didn't have anything of vlaue to post prior to this. If you would like me to start making posts like "Hey, my dog likes hump legs, how about yours?" and use up bandwith to get my numbers up... I will. But if you look at my history on any of the pages I frequent, my post count is not very high. Even on SBN, where I have been for over two years, my posts count has not broken the 800 mark yet. Some people have got 800 posts just by posting   :lol or whatever your choice of smily is. I, however, chose to post only when I have something of importance. Is it my fault that your web page members are so well informed?
Believe me, my use of your bandwith will be even more limited in the future, so I will help in keeping your costs down.
BTW, I have a hard time believing that Robert was rude to anyone. In my limited experience with him (all of 5 days now), he has been nothing but curtious.
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TRC51
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted July 01, 2002 08:06 AM
Honest question.... where does Robert advertise on Easy's site? Is it in the flashing ads at the top?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted July 01, 2002 08:35 AM
trc51... robert appears to have a banner ad in rotation at the top of easy's site..
You've ended up in the middle of something that doesnt seem to have much to do with you other than finally moving yerself out of "parking attendant" status..  ... sorry if you got caught in the middle of something here...
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TRC51
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted July 01, 2002 09:20 AM
Edited By: TRC51 on 1 Jul 2002 10:20
You mean FSD Extreme designs or whatever? That is actually a competitor of Roberts. Is that the one you are talking about? Is it on the forums page, or the web page? I can't find it, but I can be blind sometimes.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted July 01, 2002 09:25 AM
no.... I meant the guys selling the dials.. .but whatever.. I dont relly care anymore.... everyone knows the policy... it's the best we can do right now till we have some other options for smaller companies to advertise..
I have to go install the Muzzy lowering links onto PrincessKiwi's bike so I've got some things to do now...
-later!
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TRC51
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted July 01, 2002 09:34 AM
Edited By: TRC51 on 1 Jul 2002 10:38
Nope.... dials are not his either. Those guys are over in Europe. Robert is in Canada. So at least the advertising issue is cleared up.
Good luck with the lowering links.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted July 01, 2002 09:40 AM
trc51, please understand that this is not personal and not meant as an attack against u in any form. we are just in a difficult political position here & have to try to make the best of it. u have been caught in the crossfire as it were. i will be working on what all admins agree is a good solution for this kinda situation. hopefully i can get it done in the next few days. in the meantime, just try to see our point of view as explained quite well by fish & i think u'll understand where we're comming from, which should disolve any bad mojo u'v got right now.
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TRC51
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted July 01, 2002 10:19 AM
Freek,
I absolutely understand your point of view. I don't expect you should be giving free advertising, especially since you have had good intentions (I'm sure) for this site since its inception. Even more so that it costs YOU money to do said "advertising".
However, if you are going to be "fair", I think it only reasonable that you consider what I have said about the "Great deals for us" post. I really don't want you to delete that post, because I want others like me (financially challenged sometimes) to have the opportunity. However, on the same token, I do not want to be the victim of the "panic button" because of what has so far been explained by my post count.
My name has not changed in the three years I have been posting. Look around a little. If I had a history of 2 posts per board which consisted of the post in question. Then it would be pretty obvious that I was spamming. But I don't.
I think it is a good idea to review your policies, and hope you come up with a fair one. I realize it's not easy, but this has left a bad taste in my mouth, and I would hope to avoid it in the future.
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zx12zx11
Expert Class
Posts: 471
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posted July 01, 2002 11:17 AM
redelk close to 1500 members, no shit. I remember not too long ago when the site had 1000 members that is quite and achievement.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted July 01, 2002 11:40 AM
trc51, as i mentioned, our new idea for extra-small companies and things like these group deals should work out nicely. i think it will satiate everyone.
zx12zx11, scary thing is fish has deleted large groups of bogus registrations from time to time too. he's deleted a few hundred members over time in this fashion. so our member count is more accurate than what u see on other boards i think.
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted July 01, 2002 11:45 AM
quote:
I understand the intention of your rule's but disagree with the implmentation of them on trc51.
Just my opunion
Kind of my feeling as well. I have no doubt at all that TRC's intentions are to help us all out. The plug for Roberts business is just a byproduct of that. Nothing more.
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geoffwood
Novice Class
Posts: 32
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posted July 01, 2002 11:54 AM
I agree with XLNT.
Where do you draw the line between posting a good deal, and advertising? The response here is clumsy. Like others here, I read more than I post, but I'll do my part to control costs, by sticking to other sites in the future.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted July 01, 2002 05:50 PM
What's "clumsy" about it?
It obviously not a "clarity" issue. I believe that the "policies", their purpose and the reasoning behind them have been made more then clear. The administrators have also openly admitted that these policies have their shortcomings and more importantly have stated that they are going to address them as soon as practically possible.
My God! What more can you expect?
Since both fish and frEEk have already mentioned it, I received this e-mail from Mad Dog today (I just hope he doesn't get pissed at me for "publishing" it!)...
"We're going to be working on a new section that will allow smaller guys to post cheaper ads for limited periods of promotion - but don't have an ETA as of yet...
Freek and I will get it done as soon as other responsibilities allow.
We decided to do this during our discussions over the last flair up regarding ads on the forums - we hope it will work to reduce problems and actually be useful to users and companies alike.
Also, fish and frEEk have stated in this thread that they are going to create a method for publishing "group discounts" in a manner that is easily accessible and available. What more can you ask for?
Would you rather all the "group rate" info just be posted on this forum, only to drop down the pages and not be easily accessible for the newbies who might not know how to search for them? Huh?
Like others here, I read more than I post, but I'll do my part to control costs, by sticking to other sites in the future.
I'm so sorry that this inconvenience has upset you to the point that you won't visit this site as often (if not at all). Might we trouble you to share some that infinite wisdom of yours by offering some form of legitimate idea on improving "your" site before you leave us?
Geez! Give me a break!
Sorry to "rant like fish", but ... nevermind.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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ddpete3
Pro
Posts: 1189
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posted July 02, 2002 01:07 AM
.
quote:
I agree with XLNT.
Where do you draw the line between posting a good deal, and advertising? The response here is clumsy. Like others here, I read more than I post, but I'll do my part to control costs, by sticking to other sites in the future.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass....
____________
My name is Doug, damnit!
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Zx12RNinja
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted July 02, 2002 04:24 AM
My interpertation of trc51 is a man making phone call's because he's interested in obtaining something for his bike and thought maybe other's would be interested also. And to save a buck. Not trying to make a buck. And helping fellow rider's out.
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