shiggsy
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted July 05, 2007 04:48 AM
Intermittent Rough Running
Hi, first post but been a lurker here for years. I need some theories for a fairly long term problem that I have had with the bike that I just live with, some days it will run smoothly others it will run roughly and usually it will be somewhere between the two. The rough running feels similar to having a pinched fuel or vacuum line, or spark plug gaps to small, like the enginge can't quite breathe properly, when you shut the throttle the bike tends to dive and decelerate quicker than normal as though decelerating is what it wants to do.
Apart from just removing the Kleen air system (no difference) the bike is completey stock. I have recently fitted an AFR meter to it and I was 'expecting' to see some differences on that when the bike is running rough or smooth, but there are none, with the RPM held at a steady point
the bike can be running bad or good but the AFR can be the same in both cases.
There is a problem that I belive the AFR is showing, I can be cruising along at apprx 4500RPM and the AFR can be showing 14.5 but it could also quite easily be showing 11.5 with no noticable difference in the way the bike feels, running good or bad.
That's got me a bit confused as I would have thought in difference in the way the bike ran would have shown up at the end, i.e. the mixture that got burnt.
Valve clearances have just been done (three shims out), new spark plugs in, (CR9EIX gapped to 8mm, CR9EKP previously) throttle bodies balanced (they were out) TPS reset 1.085v. None of that made any difference.
All spark plugs the roughly the same colour. Compression is 215, 205, 205, 205.
I am thinking at the moment that the TPS might be iffy as the TPS on the AFR chart does look pretty erratic, it's never steady from one moment to the next so I'll be checking that with a meter at the weekend.
Any theories ?
  
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
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posted July 05, 2007 07:22 AM
What kind of AFR meter? It sounds like a fuel problem but unless you are real confident in the update rate and validity of your AFR you might not be led down the right path.
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shiggsy
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted July 05, 2007 07:50 AM
Its a Wego II and your right, I don't have any experience with them and I have no baseline for comparisson, but as there doesn't seem to be any correlation between the rough running and what the AFR is telling me I don't think the AFR will be leading me down too many paths 
I have an inline fuel pressure guage on order (10-14 days delivery quoted, that was about 40 days ago  ) incase the fuel pump is acting up. I have tested the fuel output on the 3 second startup which was 83ml so pretty healthy.
Only thing I have noticed is the resistance on the secondary windings on all four stick coils was slightly above the top range, local Kawasaki dealer didn't think that was significant though.
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NOS1290
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posted July 05, 2007 09:32 AM
Sounds like plugged injectors. Sometimes they run smooth, sometimes they don't.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 05, 2007 10:27 AM
shigg,
what year is yr 12???
I have a brand new, OEM set of 04/05 injectors...
I'll give you a real good deal on em.
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SHIGGSY
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Posts: 128
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posted July 05, 2007 10:40 AM
 Edited By: SHIGGSY on 5 Jul 2007 11:44
quote:
Sounds like plugged injectors. Sometimes they run smooth, sometimes they don't.
I have run injector cleaner though them fairly regulary. I'll have to do the injector click 'listening test', I haven't done that yet.
quote:
what year is yr 12???
I have a brand new, OEM set of 04/05 injectors...
Cheers but mines an A2 (I'm also in the UK).
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
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posted July 06, 2007 01:08 PM
It really SOUNDS like a faulty TPS, but IF your A/F meter was correct and quick that should show up there.
If you had an A1 I'd really be thinking that is the problem because it was very common for people to mis-plug the TPS and MAP sensor leads into the wrong plugs. (they were plugged exactly alike and within reach of each other). Once done, this usually damaged the TPS. Caused no end of problems. I believe I was the one that discovered this just as the bikes were being released. I chased the problem for DAYS before realizing my mistake by tracing the wires by color. I advised K of the problem, and they were not aware that the bike was not idiot proofed in that area. Fixed in the A2, I believe.
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SHIGGSY
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Posts: 128
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posted July 07, 2007 01:23 AM
Someone else has said when their TPS went faulty their fuel consumption rocketed, I'm getting 40mpg. Maybe it depends on 'how' it goes faulty ? I defintitely haven't swapped the sensor plugs by accident, only time I would have had both plugs of at the same time was recently when I took the engine out and I labelled up all the wires (thanks to Blitzkriegs valve clearance guide ).
The bike ran 'on song' last night when I left work say 95%+ as opposed to about 75% the day before. I thought I would be able to have a map to look at with it running good but it went back to running bad after half an hour so that data would have got overwritten in the following hour (WEGO is set to log every 0.50 second at the moment). I wonder if it's possible to wire a switch into the WEGO so you can stop it logging information but keep the heat going tot he O2 sensor and preserve information.
Just about to wander off now into the garage and do some checks.
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entropy
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posted July 07, 2007 01:50 AM
shig,
yer WEGO is sampling every .50 sec??? that is a VERY low sampling rate. My LM-1 samples every .1 and i wish it could do .01.
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SHIGGSY
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posted July 07, 2007 02:07 AM
Yes but the problem is I live 15 minutes from the motorway and I wanted to see what it recorded for cruising speed. If it's posible to put a switch on the WEGO to stop it recording I could lower the logging interval, otherwise I'll have to caryy a laptop with me and download at the side of the road.
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SHIGGSY
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Posts: 128
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posted July 07, 2007 11:31 AM
Partial success.
Listened to the injectors, they were hammering away ok. I spotted the fuel return hose was jammed between a coolant hose and the engine frame so I re-routed that. Also found the tube from the evaporater to the throttle bodies was snagged so re routed that as well. Must have done that myself putting the engine back in. Went for a test ride and it was a mjaor improvement, but still not perfect, or as good as I know it can be. There's a harsh edge to the engine which can dissapear when its running properly.
Sprayed WD40 over the throttle body lines, no change but I replaced the throttle body tubing anyway. TPS checked out ok, correct voltage and resistance. Re-syned the throttle bodies and re-set the TPS. Just waiting on the Fuel pressure guage now.
There was a mistake in my earlier post about the stick coils, it was the Primary windings that were ohming high, all of them are 1.3 when the manual says 0.85 - 1.15. Worth replacing ?
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tuusinii
Pro
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posted July 08, 2007 03:24 AM
If Your using regular multimeter from measuring the resistance that low (<1ohm) it can't make very accurate readings because of the meters own lead resistance. You would need 4 wire measurement and approprieate meter. So I woudn't be worried about that. Have You checked them also when hot? You can check the inaccurance by just connecting the multimeter leads and You won't ge 0.0 Ohm reading. One thing I learned when trying to fix a fuelling problem on My Fathers '86 Z1300 DFI was that after I found that the TPS was buggered with water - wich was the primary cause - I also had to change the plugs because they got ill from the water soaked TPS and needed replacement.
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted July 08, 2007 10:07 AM
I took one of the stick coils up to the dealers and they read it as reading high but not significant they said but that was cold, I havent tried to on a hot one yet. I guess they are all reading slightly high due to general wear and tear. I don't know much about electronics but 0.85 - 1.15 gives a range of 0.30 which seems pretty tight, if my multimeter is rounding up from 1.25 i'm over by 0.10 which is 33% of the range which seems to be a lot.
Maybe I should just replace them?
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shiggsy
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted July 23, 2007 03:41 AM
Still not running right, bike ran like a POS Friday evening.
Digital Fuel Pressure gauge turned up and I have fitted it. At first I thought I definitely had a pump issue as I was getting some pretty jumpy readings but then I began to suspect the bikes electronics were interfering with it especially as there was also no correlation between the bike running rough or good and the readings from the pressure gauge. I confirmed this when I isolated the gauge from the bike by powering the gauge from a 9 volt battery. Pressure was nice and steady then and my fuel pump looks healthy. Maybe this is an indication something is wrong with the electronics somewhere ?
Pulled the throttle bodies, removed the injectors and put them in an ultrasonic cleaner until 'misty' fluid stopped coming out of the filter ends. Re-assembled and turned the bike over with the throttle bodies at the side of the bike, fine puffs of petrol coming from each injector all looked equal.
Put it all back to together, no change, still running like POS. Also noticed my voltage readout whilst running has started to fluctuate between 13v and 13.8 when it was consistently 13.7v area.
The odd thing is the bike is running rich, spark plugs are a bit sooty, pipe occasionally soots up when it should be a brown tan and AFR is confirming this as it seems to run in the 11s a lot of the time now, but I'm getting good mileage, apprx 40mpg. Because of the good fuel consumption I'm thinking the running rich is therefor due to a lack of air ? I think.
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SHIGGSY
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posted August 09, 2007 12:22 PM
Well I've cracked the rough running problem at long last. The replacement Cam sensor made a positive difference but it still wasn't right. Checking the TPS once again showed nothing so I moved to the ECU with the intention of checking the inputs and outputs with a PC based oscilloscope that I've acquired. I had time check the coolant sensor which checked out fine before before it started raining. But next day the bike ran absolutely perfectly which ment I must have moved or touched the problem area. I've had the TPS apart loads of times so it probably wasn't that so it must be the coolant sensor connection which I back probed or one of the other connections into the ECU. Pulled all the connectors out of the connections block and they all looked shiney and fine until I got to the ECU Power Source Circuit Ground To Battery wire which had breaks in it. I've had the loom out completely and unwrapped it looking for breaks but this wouldn't be spotted unless al the connectors were pulled out of the block.
I described the difference before as liveable but the way its running now the difference is night and day, engine feels electric smooth in comparison.
Only problems I have now are a vicious jerking when the throttle is minutely opened which started as soon as I replaced the Cam sensor.
The other problem is my continued low voltage (13.3) at running speeds. It's a new regulator but I'm thinking a diodes gone. I'll be testing it out again at the weekend.
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tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted August 09, 2007 12:36 PM
Good that You find it! The ground problem will surely give You ridiability issues!
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