jungleboy
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted May 16, 2007 06:43 PM
no fire in the hole
Ive got a 2000 zx12 with a 2001 motor......checked the timing, its ok, I have spark on all 4 sticks...good plugs, good compression, got fuel....but cant get the thing to fire up.....I thought the injectors might be fouled up, but if I introduce my own fuel source right into the intake throats, than it should fire. A question.....if the ecu is bad will it allow the coils to spark at random or not at all?
Any ideas would be most welcome on where to start on this troubleshooting mess.....I cant even get the thing to hiccup or anything..........what am I missing here?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted May 16, 2007 07:17 PM
How about a little more info....
Did it run fine and then one day it stopped or did you do some mod recently or ???
How did you check the timing? I'm wondering because your asking about the ecu firing at the wrong time.
As for troubleshooting the shop manual suggest for:
Starter motor rotates the engine but there is no combustion and the engine doesn't start:
Check:
1 ECU ground and power supply (the starter motor circuit is independent of the ECU)
2 Ignition Switch, Engine Stop Switch
3 Spark Plugs
4 In tank fuel pump
5 Vehicle down sensor
6 Crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor
7 Stick coil
8 Fuel injectors
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megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted May 16, 2007 08:45 PM
quote:
How about a little more info....
Did it run fine and then one day it stopped or did you do some mod recently or ???
How did you check the timing? I'm wondering because your asking about the ecu firing at the wrong time.
As for troubleshooting the shop manual suggest for:
Starter motor rotates the engine but there is no combustion and the engine doesn't start:
Check:
1 ECU ground and power supply (the starter motor circuit is independent of the ECU)
2 Ignition Switch, Engine Stop Switch
3 Spark Plugs
4 In tank fuel pump
5 Vehicle down sensor
6 Crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor
7 Stick coil
8 Fuel injectors
9. The kickstand kill switch
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted May 16, 2007 09:19 PM
did you change out the cam and sensor on the 2001 head? to match the 2000 ecu?
if not that is your problem for sure!
I thought the head you got from me was a 2000? maybe it was an 01?
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jhinderliter
Zone Head
Hacksaw
Posts: 541
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posted May 17, 2007 08:24 AM
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=23032
i had the same issue when i did my motor swap...hopefully this thread helps
good luck
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted May 17, 2007 09:29 AM
quote:
did you change out the cam and sensor on the 2001 head? to match the 2000 ecu?
if not that is your problem for sure!
I thought the head you got from me was a 2000? maybe it was an 01?
I'm betting with Mike!
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jungleboy
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted May 17, 2007 01:04 PM
whew.........ok first RR: I got the bike on a very bad deal........it was totalled, well worse than totalled, because it was just pieced together from different piles of junk to make a sucker like me buy it offa ebay...I thought I was buying a 2000 model, but turns out the motor is a 2001..(I think)so it has never run since ive had it. Engine stop switch ok, down senser ok, tank fuel pump ok, plugs and stick coils ok, cam senser ok, didnt check the crank senser....(um check for what?) the ecu ground and power supply....well the motor turns over with the starter (Is that what you mean?) timing is right on...marks on the cam sprockets in conjunction with the pickup advancer mark...not 180 degrees out or anything...
Next, Mike: yeah the head and cams you got me are 2000...I indexed the lil' tipper thingy on the exhaust cam so it would trip the cam senser same as a 2001 cam would. And the ecu was a 2001 unit...thats how I got the "oh shit, 2001 motor" idea when I saw it...........also, the cases you got me were 2000 also...the small oil check window in the lower case is different on the 2001 model...So I knew that the machine isnt a 2000 after all...(well not the motor at least)
I then crossed referenced all the sensers to see if there were any other differences between the two models and didnt find any.......so when I squirt fuel into the throats it SHOULD fire...unless the ECU is hinky, and Im not positive how to "check" it......
LOL!!! sounds fun huh? with you guys helping out I think I can get it sorted out though......just dont want it to take all summer, ya know...
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted May 17, 2007 08:39 PM
you need to swap it with an 01 ECU and see if maybe your ECU is bad...
do you have a power commander on it? if so unplug it and try starting it without it...
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jungleboy
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted May 18, 2007 07:28 PM
Mike, the ECU is already a 2001.........when I got the cases and head from you, I thought my bike was a 2000(the numbers on the frame show it as a 2000 model).......but when I looked up the numbers on the ECU I saw that it was in fact a 2001....so I had to switch the index on the end of the exhaust cam (the 2000 cam I got from you Mike), to emulate a 2001 cam so the ECU would recognize it.
Think I stumbled on the problem though....I rechecked the cam sensor, and Im supposta be getting
0.2 volts , however now Im seeing only 0.02 volts when I test it........on accident when I was turning over the motor with the sensor out of position but still hooked up, it grounded itself to the frame(duhhhhh, magnetic) and I got a massive "BOOM!!" and about a 12 inch flame out of the pipe.
So I went to the shop and ordered another sensor....I hope that solves the problem....Im not a complete rookie to motorcycles, but these newer bikes take a bit more trickery to sort out with all their sensors....And to all you guys there on this site, thanks so much!! you guys are great with the the advice and willingness to help a guy out! 
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MadMike
Moderator
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Posts: 6579
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posted May 18, 2007 08:51 PM
Yea I know, I guess I was trying to say if you have a buddy close with and 01 just put his ECU in your bike to see if anything else happens. or if the bike acts the same, which means your ECU is good...
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jungleboy
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted May 19, 2007 03:50 AM
I dont have any buddies.......(*sobbing uncontrolably).....just kidding, the only guy with a bunch of different ECU's is that Todd guy up here in the cities, and I know hed be willing to help out but I think hes just killer busy these days.....Im gonna see if that cam sensor is the culprit though, because I should be getting almost a quarter of a volt and Im only getting two one-hundreths(.02) even I cant be reading that wrong when set to test for 10 volts...LOL.......Oh well, we'll see......(crossing fingers)
thanks again MM ........Oh, if it works, Ill actually be able to show it to ya next weekend...the guys I ride around with and I are going to be making our sonic burger run next saturday.
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted May 20, 2007 09:00 AM
great!!! give me a shout!
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted May 20, 2007 12:22 PM
What I found on mine with an idling/running issue was one of the connectors on the ecu wasn't all the way on.Also my meter has a max setting for pulse reads where the vdc is jumping on off frequently.Just wondering if you got a good reading off the cam sensor.
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jungleboy
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted May 20, 2007 06:16 PM
nope, the reading was a steady .02- .03 volts........nothing erratic, but way below the normal .2 volts that I should be getting.
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted May 21, 2007 07:29 AM
 Edited By: ridgeracer on 21 May 2007 08:30
Are you actually using the Kawasaki Peak Voltage Adapter to measure your cam sensor voltage?
What kind of meter are you using?
Did you try the cam sensor resistance and resistance to ground tests outlined in the manual?
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jungleboy
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted May 23, 2007 07:09 PM
ok, now that Ive ordered the part from the slowass dealership, you got me worried.....the "kawasaki peak voltage adapter"? Ummmmmm no I didnt use that I just did the test on the sensor like I thought I read it was supposta be done....guess I better read some more...thanks, Ill let you know what happens....
oh, and the multimeter is just a regular digital multimeter.
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted May 24, 2007 09:07 AM
The cam sensor only generates a pulse when that little nub on the cam passes by which can't be more than say a 5% duty cycle. Unless you have a very expensive meter with a good sample/hold capability its not going to register such a short pulse.
The peak voltage adapter 'records' the peak voltage. Actually the adapter is probably nothing more than a diode and a capacitor.
For those not familiar with electronics think of the diode as a check valve, electrons can only go thru it in one direction, and think of the cap as a storage tank. To continue the analogy think of the cam sensor as a small piston chamber and the voltmeter as a pressure gauge.
If I hook the piston chamber directly to the pressure gauge and push on the piston the gauge pressure will increase but soon as I release the piston the pressure in the system will push the piston back out and the pressure I read will not be accurate. This is analogous to what happens when you try to read the short pulse of the cam sensor with a volt meter.
However if I add a check valve and a small storage tank to the piston chamber and then push on the piston it will pressurize the tank. When I release the piston the check valve will keep the pressure in the tank. Of course if i wanted measure the peak pressure I could generate with the piston I would have to cycle it several times. Each time, as pressure built up in the tank the piston would be harder to push until you could push it no more. That would be the peak pressure.
The peak voltage adapter works the same way only your pumping electrons, not air. When the nub on the cam passes the coil in the sensor it generates voltage that forces electrons down the wire through the diode and into the cap. When the nub is gone and the voltage drops the diode keeps the electrons from flowing out of the cap.
Electrons only flow from a higher voltage to a lower voltage just as air flows from a higher pressure to a lower pressure. As electrons pile up in the cap with each pulse the voltage across the cap increases and will eventually be equal to the voltage generated by the cam sensor coil. At that point no more electrons will flow and the cap will equal the peak voltage of the coil.
In the manual it says you need to crank the bike for 4~5 seconds. That is to make sure you generate enough pulses to pump up the cap to the max the coil can generate. Placing a meter across the cap will reveal the peak voltage of the coil. However you must do it while the bike is cranking as the diode, cap and volt meter all 'leak'. You can't pump it up and expect it to be accurate 10 seconds after you stop pumping.
You've already ordered the part so you probably don't want to bother, but you could make a peak voltage adapter out of a couple bucks of Radio Shack parts.
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jungleboy
Novice Class
Posts: 42
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posted May 24, 2007 06:52 PM
pretty impressive.....some pretty heavy information made easy to understand when you explain it . On that note both my old sensor and the new one that just arrived today seem to have the same effect on the motor...still no fire ...but Im just going to go down the line systematically to try to eliminate any kinks in the progression of things that need to happen to get this thing to fire...
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