shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted February 26, 2007 10:01 PM
Extending the rev limiter
Now that I'm getting stiffer valve springs in my stock motor for safety sake on spray I figured it is a good time to go ahead and have Dave O add 600 RPMs to my OEM ECU.
My purpose is:
1) In times when over-revving 5th gear due to winds would help reduce the RPM drop shifting into 6th
2) Missing a shift and having more RPMs before the limiter since I use nitrous.
3) Similar to one, I could, say, gear for 196 but with over-rev wring it out to 200 mph and not sacrifice acceleration. Of course with stock cams and all I'm not necessarily "GAINING" HP revving later, per se, but you get the idea!
What happens to my PC3R values at these new RPMS? Are they essentially "0"? Forgive me, I have yet to actually mess with my map. I just know its set up rich, timing taken out and has done ok for me thus far at several venues on premium pump gas.
Will I have to "remap" completely?
I suppose the first step is to upload the current map into my computer to save it, then add the necessary amount of fuel and take out some timing from 11,600 rpms thru 12,200? Since I run a PC3R I have adjustability every 500 RPMS instead of 250 like the PC3 USB I believe.
For starters I guess I could copy over the values from my highest RPM in my PC3R and paste it in the newer higher rev range.
Any thoughts or opinions?
A.
  
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted February 26, 2007 11:13 PM
ship,
" I guess I could copy over the values from my highest RPM in my PC3R and paste it in the newer higher rev range.",
yep, No need to re-map.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted February 27, 2007 03:39 AM
I thought Dave O says to add 5% to each box after the mod.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted February 27, 2007 05:30 AM
quote:
I thought Dave O says to add 5% to each box after the mod.
if Dave said "do it" then do it!
I did a back to back test with ext ECU vs MadMike's non-extended, and the hp was virtually identical in ea case.
However, we didn't try to fine-tune the fuel map in either case so perhaps the test wasn't valid???
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted February 27, 2007 08:26 AM
How do you do this mod?
Is it a case of sending the ecu to some one or a home fix?
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted February 27, 2007 09:01 AM
Seth,
send yr ECU to Dave Owen in Massachusetts, he does the mod for something like $200 and he turns it around quickly
(i may be wrong about the price, its been a while since he did mine)
Dave cell: 508 802 0425
tell entropy sent you and maybe i'll earn frequent fixer points with him 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted February 27, 2007 09:27 AM
Entropy thanks for the info.
1 problem though I am in the UK.
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted February 27, 2007 12:22 PM
Fed Ex works well, plus the exchange rate is a plus!
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted February 27, 2007 01:47 PM
quote:
Fed Ex works well, plus the exchange rate is a plus!
True & True
Only downside is the import duty and VAT when the gear comes into the UK, if you can get the seller/dealer to post it the Right way with a favourably low valuation of the goods, then your stuff in the US is like factory discount prices to us in England.
Does that bloke do the same mod as the Brock one?
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted February 27, 2007 02:54 PM
The bloke would probably treat you very right just give him a call.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
zx12boricua
Expert Class
Posts: 392
|
posted February 27, 2007 06:13 PM
If you have the ignition module from DJ you can extend the rev limiter too. Cost is $250.00 on Ebay.
____________
2012 ZX14R Blue Current
2007 ZX14 Black Sold
2006 ZX10R Yellow Sold
2002 ZX7R Silver,Black,Yellow Stolen
2000 ZX12R Red Sold
1989 GPZ900R Red Sold
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted February 27, 2007 10:03 PM
While I thought about it, in conjunction with the pc3 usb and quickshifter
I think I'd rather keep my pc3r, get an air shifter and run it off my nos bottle, with the extended ecu from Dave O. I would end up spending less overall and getting more (air shifter requiring no foot movement on my part and I already have nos to split the line to the air shifter).
A.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted February 28, 2007 01:16 AM
quote:
quote:
Does that bloke do the same mod as the Brock one?
Brock & DaveO are buds and biz associates, I am pretty sure that Brock sends the ECU's to Dave for modding. (not 110% sure)
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted February 28, 2007 06:29 AM
quote:
If you have the ignition module from DJ you can extend the rev limiter too. Cost is $250.00 on Ebay.
I have that ignition module on my 10R and I'm nOT impressed with it AT ALL. While on Chris Hill's dyno we moved the ignition advance up and down several degrees and seen ZERO power change!!!!!!!!! Only when we went like -10 degree did it show a 25 horse drop. So it was hooked up and working, BUT I think the delay it has on such small changes make it JUNK!!!!!!!!!! The ICE MAN tried it on that record setting 10R last year and found the same thing as well. It was removed and scrapped in favor of the Kawasaki Kit ECU. TOOO bad they never made one of those for the 12R.
|
supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
|
posted March 01, 2007 09:10 AM
I had the same experience with the pc3r (ignition) and nobody listened to me. Only when I put on the muzzys trigger rotor did I notice a change.. Hopefully when RR finishes his project we will all have programmable ecu's..
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted March 01, 2007 09:22 AM
I did ign adv tests several times using the PC3r and hp changed predictably w/the changes.
Go figure.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted March 01, 2007 12:14 PM
quote:
I did ign adv tests several times using the PC3r and hp changed predictably w/the changes.
Go figure.
Same here. Changes on the dyno showed results.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted March 01, 2007 01:54 PM
quote:
quote:
I did ign adv tests several times using the PC3r and hp changed predictably w/the changes.
Go figure.
Same here. Changes on the dyno showed results.
Well, All I can say is the ignition module didn't do SHIT until a huge change was entered. Swinging the advance 3 to 4 degrees in each direstion at WOT and NOT seeing changes is BS. Again I was afraid to swing it +10 degree but we did pull 10 from it and seen a -25 HP drop. So the box is hooked up correct. Think about it for a second and it makes since.
How can you intercept a signal on it's way there take it back to the magic box and ADVANCE it?? Because during all this delay time the motor is still rolling thru the cycle.
NOW an idea would be to statically advance the motor by some crazy amount say like 10 degree and use the box with numbers like -6 to achieve a total advance of +4 degree. BUT if the box ever failed YOU'RE FUCKED!!!!!!!
|
shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
|
posted March 01, 2007 02:17 PM
If if was a spliff we'd all be stoned! Anyways.....
My n/a map made 175 on the dyno....nos map made 172 with -3 degrees taken out (not sure if my n/a map was 0 degrees for plus some) and rich.
A.
|
ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
|
posted March 01, 2007 03:21 PM
quote:
How can you intercept a signal on it's way there take it back to the magic box and ADVANCE it?? Because during all this delay time the motor is still rolling thru the cycle.
There are eight tabs on the crank rotor, one every 45 degrees. To 'advance' the signal 5 degrees pulse the ECU 40 degrees after the tab. Tab 1 +40 degrees looks like tab 2 -5 degrees. The signals would always be one tab behind but that doesn't really matter because its the cam sensor that tells the ECU when the engine is at tdc on cylinder 1
Actually, as an engineer I kind of cringe when I hear about these schemes to fake out the ECU. As I posted in another thread the ignition rotor not only controls the ignition but also when the injector starts spraying.
As for the RPM mod to the ECU if its the one I know about its done by changing the Clock Crystal of the ECU Processor. It speeds up the ECU. Since they can't reprogram how many Rotations per Minute the limit is they change the ECUs definiton of a minute.
The problem is it changes ALL the system timing. If you speed up the ECU by 5% to extend the RPM you also reduce the injector on time by 5% and turn on the injector 5% sooner. You advance the ignition 5% and the coil pulse is 5% shorter.
One write up I saw of this mod talks about how it advances the ignition, leans out the fuel and extends the RPM limit. All true, but they make it sound like it was planned that way, that they are the optimal settings for the three. The truth is you could pick a crystal with an optimal setting for one but the other 2 are an unavoidable consequence of the scheme.
I'm not saying it doesn't work, that it doesn't make more power, but be aware of what other side effects it has.
|
shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
|
posted March 01, 2007 03:24 PM
quote:
quote:
How can you intercept a signal on it's way there take it back to the magic box and ADVANCE it?? Because during all this delay time the motor is still rolling thru the cycle.
There are eight tabs on the crank rotor, one every 45 degrees. To 'advance' the signal 5 degrees pulse the ECU 40 degrees after the tab. Tab 1 +40 degrees looks like tab 2 -5 degrees. The signals would always be one tab behind but that doesn't really matter because its the cam sensor that tells the ECU when the engine is at tdc on cylinder 1
Actually, as an engineer I kind of cringe when I hear about these schemes to fake out the ECU. As I posted in another thread the ignition rotor not only controls the ignition but also when the injector starts spraying.
As for the RPM mod to the ECU if its the one I know about its done by changing the Clock Crystal of the ECU Processor. It speeds up the ECU. Since they can't reprogram how many Rotations per Minute the limit is they change the ECUs definiton of a minute.
The problem is it changes ALL the system timing. If you speed up the ECU by 5% to extend the RPM you also reduce the injector on time by 5% and turn on the injector 5% sooner. You advance the ignition 5% and the coil pulse is 5% shorter.
One write up I saw of this mod talks about how it advances the ignition, leans out the fuel and extends the RPM limit. All true, but they make it sound like it was planned that way, that they are the optimal settings for the three. The truth is you could pick a crystal with an optimal setting for one but the other 2 are an unavoidable consequence of the scheme.
I'm not saying it doesn't work, that it doesn't make more power, but be aware of what other side effects it has.
But when you tune the bike, and adjust the timing/fuel...you are compensating for the secondary effects, correct?
|
GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted March 01, 2007 03:43 PM
Well for the 12R it's not a simple thing. For the 10R I'm going with the Race ECU and forget I ever heard about Dyno Jet!
|
Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
|
posted March 01, 2007 04:17 PM
You got me thinking.... My 2k zx12 has been down 3hp (212 to 209) since my ECU mod. I did add fuel and timing, and had it dyno tuned, but my tuner could only get 209 rwhp. On several previous runs, she made 212 rwhp. His comment was that there are many factors that could account for the 3hp loss.
quote:
quote:
quote:
How can you intercept a signal on it's way there take it back to the magic box and ADVANCE it?? Because during all this delay time the motor is still rolling thru the cycle.
There are eight tabs on the crank rotor, one every 45 degrees. To 'advance' the signal 5 degrees pulse the ECU 40 degrees after the tab. Tab 1 +40 degrees looks like tab 2 -5 degrees. The signals would always be one tab behind but that doesn't really matter because its the cam sensor that tells the ECU when the engine is at tdc on cylinder 1
Actually, as an engineer I kind of cringe when I hear about these schemes to fake out the ECU. As I posted in another thread the ignition rotor not only controls the ignition but also when the injector starts spraying.
As for the RPM mod to the ECU if its the one I know about its done by changing the Clock Crystal of the ECU Processor. It speeds up the ECU. Since they can't reprogram how many Rotations per Minute the limit is they change the ECUs definiton of a minute.
The problem is it changes ALL the system timing. If you speed up the ECU by 5% to extend the RPM you also reduce the injector on time by 5% and turn on the injector 5% sooner. You advance the ignition 5% and the coil pulse is 5% shorter.
One write up I saw of this mod talks about how it advances the ignition, leans out the fuel and extends the RPM limit. All true, but they make it sound like it was planned that way, that they are the optimal settings for the three. The truth is you could pick a crystal with an optimal setting for one but the other 2 are an unavoidable consequence of the scheme.
I'm not saying it doesn't work, that it doesn't make more power, but be aware of what other side effects it has.
But when you tune the bike, and adjust the timing/fuel...you are compensating for the secondary effects, correct?
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC