VincentHill
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posted January 05, 2007 04:39 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 5 Jan 2007 16:42
JE vs CP! You decide!
Please review the Following measurements and Pictures and make your own decision. You already know mine! Pictures Hosted by and Thanks to dontbescaredredracing.com
The Piston on the Left is the JE and the Piston on the Right is CP. When I had a valve touch the JE Piston I measured the Distance between the top of the Cylinder and the Depth of the Valve Pocket and found a variance of + or - 0.004. Not much but that is an 0.008 difference from the Low to the High. Which in my case was too much.
Both Pistons were made to the exact same Specs and weigh the exact same thing 0.78 pounds
The length of the skirts from the Bottom of the Oil Ring to the Bottom of the Piston Skirt is JE = 26 mm and the CP = 31 mm. The Thickness of the Oil control RIng Land is JE = 2.5 mm and the CP = 4.5 mm
The thickness of the Piston between the Exhaust Valve relief Pocket and the top of the Dimple under it is JE = 5 mm and the CP = 5.7 mm. With that area (where I burned through my CP Piston) being 0.7 mm thinner on the JE, it would have burned through Sooner Karl.
Other Small differences are the thickness of the Piston at the thinnest part of the wrist Pin hole is JE = 4 mm CP = 4.8 mm. Wrist Pin thichness is JE = 3.8 mm and the CP = 4.3 mm The last thing I see as a difference is the JE has 3 oil Holes inside the Skirt area at the Oil Control ring right together and the CP 4 Oil Holes of which 2 are inside the Skirt area and 1 in that Dimple area on both sides of the Skirt. The Rings look the Same and are the same thickness and design
Last, Both Sets of Pistons cost me about the Same amount of Money
  
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entropy
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posted January 05, 2007 06:07 PM
VH;
what is the point here, that JE's are defective???
lower quality, poorly designed???
A POS compared with CP's???
If so, you better put the emergency red light and sirens on to inform the Nascar guys.
(when i visited JE, I saw 50+ sets of JE's in the QC room. going out to NASCAR teams.)
DANGER, Will Robinson, DANGER!!!?????
The thermodynamics of pistons in action is something i do not understand at all.
The differences in thicknesses you see above; are they significant??? Maybe thin (in some cases) dissipates heat faster???
Who knows???
I don't, do you???
What I do know is that when I call JE's John Noonan he builds what i want perfectly, fast, and at a good price.
Last thing i heard was one of yr CP pistons failed...
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osti33
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posted January 05, 2007 07:08 PM
quote:
What I do know is that when I call JE's John Noonan he builds what i want perfectly, fast, and at a good price.
Yep. I have had great luck with JE's. I have run them in all of my car engines from mild all the way up to 1000hp. No problems here. I also have them in my stroker ZX12 and will be using them in my next bike build as well.
Mr. Hill,
It seems like you have an axe to grind with JE and I'm really not sure why...If you like CP pistons better that's great but I really don't see the point in slamming JE because you didn't have enough valve to piston clearance. When you put the motor together with the JE's you should have checked the valve to piston clearance on every valve. You should do the same with CP or any other pistons as well.
Anyways...That's just my  You can take it for what it is worth. Good luck getting your bike back together. Look forward to seeing you in June. 
Ryan
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MadMike
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posted January 05, 2007 08:06 PM
I do like my JE's but then again I have never sprayed them... 
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 05, 2007 08:28 PM
I find it hard to believe that a set of 4 JE, or any brand, pistons would vary in any dimensional measurement when new.
With CNC machining repeatability to the tenth is normal and actually expected.
Also Vince, you cannot measure a pistons valve pocket for depth accuracy from one piston to another from the top of the cylinder. Your rods arnt the same length. They can vary by more than that .004" I just went thru this with a stock zx10r engine. You need to measure each pistons deck height when building an engine that is this tight in tolerance. The first time I took the stock zx12r engine apart I started to document (blueprint) the engine and found the pistons to be at different heights below the deck. I wasnt shocked, its common and "normal". But it wasnt the pistons it was the rods. They varried by .005" center to center from kawi. Not a big deal on a mass produced street motorcycle.
When you resize rods you actually change the center to center. Everytime you resize a rod its C to C gets shorter and the amount it gets shorter depends on how bad the big end bore is and how mutch you need to cut the cap and rod before honeing.
Race teams will group rods for this reason.
I too have used JE pistons in many, many, many, engines and have never had an issue.
Sure i've seen them in pieces and destroyed but it wasnt the pistons fault.
But I think your trying to say that you feal the CP pistons can take more abuse before failure
which may, or may not be the case, but you really cant conclude that from this one mishap.
Pre-ignition will destroy any piston you put in there.
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VincentHill
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posted January 06, 2007 06:19 AM
OK! You all Missed the Point! First, Karl atated that the JE would not have Burned through! I do not see where the JE was built in a way that the Amount of Missed fuel would have allowed either Piston to survive.
#2, there was a difference in "MY" Pistons and I also saw this difference in the indivual pistons and got the same response from the other JE Users that there is never anything wrong with a JE Piston. The CP had the Wrong relief in their piston and when I called them they made the changes and sent a new set of pistons that I have used ever since
#3, for everyone the pistons are sitting side by side to see for themselves and I have never seen both together anywhere so that you can see the slight differences and that is all.
I have been asked about what the differences are and took the time to see for myself. I remembered that the Skirt of the SLipper looked a little short ot me but did not know the measured difference. Like on the Mahle Pistons, the Bottom Ring land is thin and have broken off in the Porsche engine and for me I was glad to see a stronger bottom RIng Land. AGAIN, other than my 1 personal experience which you can see the Valve imprint on the piston if I did not say what and why you would ask anyway. Maybe it is the way a speak from Being a Collector that makes it appear I hate one thing and love something else. I prefer the CP Over the JE and I would use a JE over a Wiseco even though Wiseco ownes JE. Now I guess I have Pissed off the Wiseco Lovers  (I have a long list of Experiences with Wiseco and about 5 of their pistons from 2 strokes forward. SO Be prepared 
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oldkawboy
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posted January 06, 2007 06:37 AM
Ouch......
I like my Wiseco pistons, I've had a 1075 kit and now an 1105 kit in my old KZ with excellent results over the years.
Any of these mentioned piston brands are better than my mechanical ablities anyway! :-)
Dan
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entropy
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posted January 06, 2007 07:57 AM
hey Vince
are you implying that this comment caused your post??
quote:
Vincent
I betcha you wouldn't have had 1/2 the damage you did if you'd been running JE pistons 
notice the winking smiley??
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entropy
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posted January 06, 2007 08:08 AM
Vince,
Your previous diatribes against JE, in contrast to my own excellent experience makes this subject "interesting" to me
When you post a photo-docu-comparo which leads the reader to conclude JE's are substandard, I feel I need to respond.
This forums' members are mostly knowledgeable and pretty resistant to un-warranted brand bias, but posting it over on zx12r.org with its heavy % of entry-level membership????? Those guys treat you like a God, and with that adulation comes some responsibility, eh?.
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VincentHill
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posted January 06, 2007 01:35 PM
Karl, now you hit it on the head. I sort of consider us Friends and the Only thing I could think is (Yes I saw the Wink) that either you do not remember all I went throught about the JE Pistons several years ago and everyone telling me how they have never made a piston that was not perfect and because no one else has ever had a problem like I did and Somehow the Measurements I made "Piston to Piston (nothing to do with the engine) and the Differences I took pictures of, no one would do anything about it! It was all my fault! To this day I have a set of JE Pistons that I paid for and nothing was done.
When I got the CP Pistons and put the engine together I saw where the Valve relief was wrong, I sent an e-mail at 3:30 AM to them with my usual diplomatic wording and at 7:30 AM their time they responded to me that what I saw was correct and that they were making the changes and sending me a new set of Pistons ASAP. That more than anything is why I use CP now
Also, I got some special Studs from "ARP" which I am using for "Case Studs" now that my engine is apart. One of the 8 MM by 4.5 inch long studs does not have Threads on one end. I guess by saying that everyone will be telling me how great ARP is and how NASCAR and everybody else uses them and they are some of the Best Fastener makers in the world! For Christ Sakes, ALL Companies make Mistakes no matter how careful they are. Yes even JE Makes mistakes. It is not that they make a mistake, it is what they do "AFTER" they make the mistake that concerns me.
When I got the Muzzy Clutch and found the Pieces not cleaned and metal Shavings inside (Nothing wrong with the work done) I made a post saying that Muzzy should not have let the Parts Cleaner go. Muzzy did not come on the tell how this has never happened or that I was wrong! Rob Himself looked into some of the Boxes that were ready to ship and found that this was true and no one else got unclean parts. He even came on the Board and stated as much. The Muzzy Exhaust for the ZX14 does not have mapping for Flys out which the Brock Pipe did. Now Muzzy has either made a map or is making a map for this application. For these reasons I do business with Muzzy and am buying a pipe from him for one of my bikes.
The list goes on! I got an Oil Bypass kit from Mr. Turbo and it did not fit. I called Terry Kizer and he told me how he had sold 87 kits and I was the first one ever to complain. A day later he called me back and said that the hoses were being cut 1 inch too short and what were the other people doing because he could not make it fit either! I still do business with Mr. Turbo.
I have called ARP and I am waiting to hear from them because this was a Special order stud that they do not catalogue. I feel and hope this turns out well also.
Anyone remember the Piece of Crap welding I got on the Brake Bracket on the Swingarm from the Owner of the Psycho Bike Board Frank Adams?? How he called me everything but a Child of God? How he went on over on the Labusas Forum about what a Great welder he was and that the Bracket he made for me was perfect?? Even John Noonan agreed that Frank had made 2 brake brackets that had failed him and the Owner of the Ghetto Turbo / Suzuki Hayabusa form said he had many of his brackets fail!
SO the deal with me is, if you make a Mistake or a bad part and send it to me, you will hear about it. If you do not threat me right and make it right, then it is personal and it is forever until you do make it right! That is just how I am! and have always been. (
So yes Karl it is like Yesterday for me and the JE Pistons I still have and own. (If you did not know about what happened previously then I hope you understand now. If you knew about what I went through (and it was a Lot), then you just do not understand that I never let anything go until done and settled. That is why I am still working on this POS NOS System I designed. It will either work or it will be the last racing bike I ride! OK Now?
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osti33
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posted January 06, 2007 02:39 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 6 Jan 2007 14:48
quote:
OK! You all Missed the Point! First, Karl atated that the JE would not have Burned through! I do not see where the JE was built in a way that the Amount of Missed fuel would have allowed either Piston to survive.
#2, there was a difference in "MY" Pistons and I also saw this difference in the indivual pistons and got the same response from the other JE Users that there is never anything wrong with a JE Piston. The CP had the Wrong relief in their piston and when I called them they made the changes and sent a new set of pistons that I have used ever since
#3, for everyone the pistons are sitting side by side to see for themselves and I have never seen both together anywhere so that you can see the slight differences and that is all.
I have been asked about what the differences are and took the time to see for myself. I remembered that the Skirt of the SLipper looked a little short ot me but did not know the measured difference. Like on the Mahle Pistons, the Bottom Ring land is thin and have broken off in the Porsche engine and for me I was glad to see a stronger bottom RIng Land. AGAIN, other than my 1 personal experience which you can see the Valve imprint on the piston if I did not say what and why you would ask anyway. Maybe it is the way a speak from Being a Collector that makes it appear I hate one thing and love something else. I prefer the CP Over the JE and I would use a JE over a Wiseco even though Wiseco ownes JE. Now I guess I have Pissed off the Wiseco Lovers (I have a long list of Experiences with Wiseco and about 5 of their pistons from 2 strokes forward. SO Be prepared
Mr Hill,
Thanks for explaining this a little better. I didn't know the past history and it is a little more clear now.
One thing I would like to clear up however...Wiseco and JE are both owned by the same parent company. I read that quite a while ago but here is a recent thread that Mr. Noonan explains it all pretty well.
http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=88210.0
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VincentHill
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posted January 06, 2007 04:49 PM
Osti, 100% correct! A company (I think) in Wisconsin. But since Wiseco bought JE "Before" this other company bought all of them I "Like" to say that Wiseco Ownes JE Because between these 2 companies you would think that JE Owned Wiseco!. BTW, Wiseco Sponsored the Superbike Race at Burke Lakefront Airport as the Support show to the Indy Car's first race there. I was invited by WIseco and finished 6th there but they only paid the top "5"!
So I even have a "T" Shirt from that race and the tape where it was televised on ESPN. SO I guess I am also Mad at Wiseco for not paying me anything
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osti33
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posted January 06, 2007 06:22 PM
Got it.
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entropy
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posted January 07, 2007 02:37 AM
Vincent,
I vaguely remember yr issues with JE a couple yrs ago, and that was the reason for my comment:
"I betcha you wouldn't have had 1/2 the damage you did if you'd been running JE pistons "
A simple lil gig; sorry you took it so seriously.
I've had problems with lots of suppliers, and like you, I judge them by their response to their mistake.
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VincentHill
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posted January 07, 2007 06:34 AM
U da Man Karl, Some things you do not know just how close to the Surface they still are until they come up. With JE it is like pouring Acid in an Open Wound that will never heal. "I even learned a few things when I compared the two. I never knew the Wrist Pin was thicker and I thought the CP Weighed More.
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entropy
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posted January 07, 2007 08:57 AM
Edited By: entropy on 7 Jan 2007 08:59
Vincent
I am sensitized to the issue of supplier quality from my job at BIG OIL.
We have Preferred Suppliers where we single source (no bidding) all sorts of goods & services including "my" 5 suppliers of gas turbines, compressors, pumps, etc.
Long term contracts, 5 yr+, with a single source of supply means we have to work it out when they deliver poor quality equipment, so that the next time they will deliver the right stuff. Only in extreme cases do we abandon a Preferred Supplier, and go thru the long, expensive process to select a different one.
A yr ago, about $100,000,000 of "wrong stuff" (4 turbine driven centrifugal compressor trains) was delivered/installed on a production platform offshore Angola.
During the time it took to tweak the equip so it performed correctly, my company lost approx $400,000,000 worth of crude oil production.
Yep, I am sensitive to the topic of quality in design and manufacturing.
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VincentHill
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posted January 07, 2007 03:53 PM
Puts things in perpsecive dosn't it! WOW! Compared to that I have NEVER EVER Had a Problem! AND we wonder why Oil cost so much! At least you work for the company that makes the Best Gasoline and was I glad when Texaco started using the same Blend. I actually took the Porsche ENgine apart and the Intake Swirl where the Gasoline comes in the Intake were totally clean and the top of the Piston where the fuel entered the cylinder was almost clean Aluminum.
Too Bad it does not clean Exhaust Valves with leaking Oil Seals. I had to take a Round Rasp and chuck the Valves in a Lathe to cut the 1/2 inch in diameter of build up. 1 was almost the size of the exhaust hole!
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MadMike
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posted January 07, 2007 07:00 PM
quote:
Yep, I am sensitive to the topic of quality in design and manufacturing.
in the last two years my production dept (small potatos) have produced 180,000 battery pack's and we have had 80 pcs returned for warranty return, 2 of those have been a production problem...
but this year is not going to be as good, we have had some problems with our cell suppliers also... grrrrr... no where near the dough... you guys spend, but then I get pretty upset if we lose 500 bucks on something stupid...
so if you guys ever need any batteries for anything... I am your guy!!
MM
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entropy
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posted January 08, 2007 02:52 AM
Mike,
looks like quality in yr dept is OUTSTANDING!!!
You know damn well who I will turn to that if we ever need batteries!
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VincentHill
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posted January 08, 2007 06:55 AM
MM I am Stupid! You are my Next Battery For my Bikes Period!
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MadMike
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posted January 09, 2007 03:13 PM
Almost anything you can dream up Vince I can do for you... I like to stay away from the Lithium Ion batteries, just because they are so dangerous without the proper chargers and safety circuits... I really enjoy building stuff that can be beat up pretty good... I do Not enjoy going from safe to scary in 90 seconds... I really would rather be like oh damn I forgot about that a week ago and there still be something there to work with...
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