VincentHill
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posted November 28, 2006 08:58 AM
Wiseco "OWNES" JE!!
  
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shane661
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posted November 28, 2006 09:16 AM
 Edited By: shane661 on 28 Nov 2006 09:18
I am aware of that. However, there is some difference in construction between the two product lines I am sure. Sort of like the Nissan and Infiniti product lines.
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shane661
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posted November 28, 2006 10:09 AM
Edited By: shane661 on 28 Nov 2006 10:12
I spoke with Wiseco today. Interesting info on their 12R pistons. All 3 catalog parts are listed at 13.5:1 compression. There are two 1272cc offerings. The nitrous piston has a dome approximately .030 thicker than the standard 1272cc piston that they sell. The rep recommened against using the standard 1272 piston for my application, based on the relatively thin dome of the non-nitrous part, and my need for a moderate amount of nitrous sprayed over a longer duration.
After inquiring about custom applications, I explained to him that I really wanted a stock bore high compression piston that could take a 60 shot. Well, as it turns out, their stock bore piston is actually .010 thicker domed than even their nitrous piston. So, it is in fact .040 thicker domed than their standard 1272cc piston. In addition, the stock bore piston is roughly 34 grams lighter than the 1272 nitrous piston.
I just thought this data may be of interest to someone here....
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DrRyanScarsella
Expert Class
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posted November 28, 2006 11:54 AM
stock boer is 4 hundreths thicker? huh, and it is forged? How much does a set run?
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shane661
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posted November 28, 2006 12:09 PM
Edited By: shane661 on 28 Nov 2006 12:12
Well, I can't say how they compare to the existing cast pistons in the bike....only how they stack up to the rest of the Wiseco offerings. Also, the design of the nitrous piston is probably considerably different...it is not just the thickness of the dome. I'm sure there is quite a bit more science to the heat absorption/dissipation than just the thickness.
For a set of pistons, rings, pins...you are looking at around $700 when all is said and done. I need to do a lot more research before I pull the trigger on a set of pistons. There are many variables to consider. Even when you decide on a forging, then you have to consider rings, pins, clips, gaskets. It's not just a simple swap if you want the best results. That is why I keep asking questions, and doing research.
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VincentHill
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posted November 28, 2006 12:36 PM
DO the Pistons have a Pressure Groove to help with the Seal? Are they now using Round wire Circlips with tapered ends of the Pins to retain the Piston Pins (As opposed to Spiral Locks or Pin Buttons)? What is the Skirt diameter compared to the Piston Head?
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shane661
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posted November 28, 2006 01:42 PM
The pistons apparently do not have the pressure groove. They are using the round wire circlips to retain the pins. The piston has a "standard" taper. But the recommended piston to bore spacing is not setup for a nitrous app. However, it was great that I called them back. I now have the contact info for one of their employees who actually runs a 12R at Maxton using Wiseco products. I will give him a call tomorrow.
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Johnnycheese
Pro
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posted November 28, 2006 04:46 PM
and please do NOT use a dry set up and please DO get rid of the stock valves
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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shane661
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posted November 28, 2006 05:00 PM
quote:
and please do NOT use a dry set up and please DO get rid of the stock valves
See, this is what kills me. Last 5 guys swear by the stock valves. Can you please set me straight on this? I have no reservations about a wet setup. But what type of valves, seats, springs and retainers should I run? I already posted this exact question.
Numerous people are saying stock valves and seats, just up the springs and retainers.
Like I said, every builder says something different and it is getting to really drive me crazy.
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DrRyanScarsella
Expert Class
Posts: 113
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posted November 28, 2006 05:06 PM
i feel you shane on this, a lot of choices. I looked into springs one set used stock valves and retainers but uped pressure, looked promising, but it seems like any brand you mention, someone has had a bad experience somewhere, which is to be expected.
I think maybe find someone or a bike that you want to get close to and start there, or consult with a mentor type of person. No substitute for wisdom. I think if I had to emulate a person, try to contact someone WHO YOU TRUST with your kaw and ask them what they think or would do or do different.
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VincentHill
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posted November 28, 2006 06:10 PM
quote:
and please do NOT use a dry set up and please DO get rid of the stock valves
Johnny are you saying Valves or Valve Springs? A LOT of us are having no problems with the Stock Valves and it looks like when some valves are used the seats need to be cut out and changed!
Shane, Good work on you piston Information. Wiseco was Horrible with their Spiral Locks, Pin Buttons that were first made of Aluminum then Teflon and later the Wire clips with bent ends that broke off before they finally gave up and put a notch in the piston to lift the Wire lock out and tapered the Pins to lock them in place when the Pin slid to the side. Last question is were the Pistons Slipper Style or Std Round? Slipper has less drag and is what even kawasaki used.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted November 28, 2006 08:14 PM
Stock exhaust valve went on mine and did a touch of damage to the head. Mad Mike has a good deal on SS ones.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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entropy
Moderator
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posted November 28, 2006 08:19 PM
quote:
quote:
and please do NOT use a dry set up and please DO get rid of the stock valves
See, this is what kills me. Last 5 guys swear by the stock valves. Can you please set me straight on this? ...quote]
VH:
this is lifted from SH.org, and I am sure you have heard of NLR.
(apologies to MH for lifting stuff, but i don't know how to link to a specific response)
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Re: Broken valve mashed into head(pics), need your opinions.
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2006, 07:46:00 AM »
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I had a fresh motor in my side mount and the same thing happened at 10,500 rpm. Looks like teh head off the valve broke and dropped it into the cylinder. That started the mass chaos and completely made my cylinder , block, pistons and everything else related look unrecognizable.
I will never run stock valves again in anything I do. I will replace them with stainless valves...
Yeah yeah before you go on about how you have never had problems with stock valves NIETHER HAD I, until now.
Too expensive for me to take a chance.
No timing didnt jump on mine until the valve broke.
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VincentHill
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posted November 29, 2006 02:41 AM
Thanks Karl,
If he is going with High RPM and the 65 PSI Seat Pressure then fine. SS Valves are Fine. I used SS in the Race Bike but never had a Problem with the Stock valves until a Piston strikes one then there is a difference because a 2 piece valve is more prone to break than the Stainless 1 piece specially if the seat pressure has been doubbled!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted November 29, 2006 04:10 AM
ss valves: (Borat voice) niiice...
BUT: do watch the collet recess on ss valves ESPECIALLY if you don't like high seat pressure. The collets can "bounce in the groove, mushrooming the top of groove.
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Johnnycheese
Pro
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posted November 29, 2006 04:17 AM
I have seen now 3 heads damaged by stock valves that break at the stem
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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entropy
Moderator
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posted November 29, 2006 04:23 AM
Hey, JC, up pretty early, eh?
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Johnnycheese
Pro
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posted November 30, 2006 02:45 PM
only because Intel still wants more power
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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Texas12R
Zone Head
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posted December 01, 2006 08:06 AM
Does Kawasaki still use stellite coated valve seats? If they do...How do you seat
the new stainless valves without diminishing this barrier?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 01, 2006 02:50 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 1 Dec 2006 14:53
Remember the valves are cooled by the seats and guides. The hottest part of a valve is the head and its cooled mostly by the seat when closed. Because the valve is closed twice as long as its open, it has time to transfer the heat. When you do race valve jobs you are narrowing the seat and some guys change the contact angles slightly for flow. This is all ok on a non nos engine. But guys that run high doses of nos will usually keep fat margins and less relief angle resulting in more contact area and heat transfer. Also nos heats the valves a hell of a lot more. Much more heat is going past the freshly opening valve and out the exhaust port.
I would personally never run nos with any stock exhaust valve on any engine unless its was a very high quality stainless from the factory. But thats rarely the case on any massproduced engines. Another problem on nos engines is when guys send out the head for porting a lot of shops remove more valve guide. They press them deep sometimes to allow more lift before the retainer hits the guide. And then they grind off 1/4"-1/2" of guide for flow. Thats fine on a non nos engine but on a nos engine valve guide contact is your friend. It transfers heat from the stem to the aluminum head.
So there is differences in how to set up a good nos head and a good non nos head. At least these are my expieriences with BIG hp (1500 hp) nos V8 stuff. I've never had NOS on my zx12 or any bike.
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ZXLNT
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Kawpuke Extraordinare
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posted December 02, 2006 02:29 AM
Wow thats some good information..
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VincentHill
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posted December 02, 2006 03:50 AM
Agreed Y2k! The power limit on any 4 stroke engine is the ability of the Exhaust valve to deal with the heat! I make the seats 1.25 MM wide on the exhaust and .75 wide on the intake (As close as I can get to that). On my 2 valve race engines I even removed the exhaust valve guide seal to allow more Oil to cool the vlave and keep contact with the guide for heat transfer. I have yet to see an exhaust vlave that I could use safely in my ZX12 engine, but I am also still looking! Did you find some that "you" are 100% satisfied with?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 02, 2006 04:20 AM
Vince, I havent had a need to run stainless valves yet. I'm running stock cams and springs and dont have nos. If i did I'd run Ferrea http://www.ferrea.com/.
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Y2KZX12R
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VincentHill
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posted December 02, 2006 05:47 AM
Thanks Y2K I have sent them an e-mail to see what they have
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 02, 2006 11:28 AM
Sorry, I should have posted this page.
http://www.ferrea.com/motorcycle06.html
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Y2KZX12R
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